025. - Natasha Stagg

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

Happy Mother's Day, TJ. Happy Mother's Day to you as well, Chris. I hope you celebrated the right way. What is the right way? Spending time with your wonderful mother in my favorite place, Orange County. I did do all of that. I had a social distance hang in the park. It was very nice. Damn, did mom show up with the Chrome Hearts mask or did she go with a different flavor? I actually forgot my mask and I had a Bon Appetit tote bag tied around my face. And then she actually had a Heather Gray cotton mask that she let me have. And it looked like I was wearing an American Apparel thong on my face. That seems like something you might have done at Cinespace circa 2007, but I don't think now is the time, Jason. I know, and looking back, it was rough. And also, being in Orange County, I was the only person wearing a mask. Wearing a mask at all, I was about to say. Dude, it was fucked. Is it actually fucked? I would say one in every hundred people is wearing a mask in Huntington Beach. I talked to my mom today who's in Atlanta who's getting destroyed for opening up early. My mom is like, no, it's pretty serious in the city. Everybody we know and most people we see at the grocery store are wearing masks and gloves and doing what they're supposed to do. They're in a real city in Huntington Beach. It's like a hillbilly country with some waves. It's true. How's mom? Is she good? Yeah, she's good. She's holding strong. Made her a nice focaccia with a heart-shaped rosemary artwork on it. You snapped on that shit, dog. That's some real bacon shit. Real bacon shit. You know, I've seen a lot of these focaccias on the gram where people make these bouquets of flowers out of shit, and it looks all pretty, and then they put it in the oven, and it looks just like a...

You know, just a burnt piece of bread with like some wilted flowers on it. And I wanted to avoid that. So I stuck with rosemary as my medium. You're smart, TJ. I like that about you. Thank you. I also got a very interesting DM right before I started from an Instagram person named Claire whose Instagram bio is the phrase no flex zone. I like her already. Yeah, and the A in Claire is a pizza emoji, not an A. And she said, do you have a lozenge or something in your mouth when you're on how long gone? It's not obvious, but I can tell something is in there at times, and it's been nagging me. Don't worry. It doesn't sound gross. I'm just curious. Love it. Love the pod, by the way. Love the pod. Can you pull that dick out of your mouth while you're talking to your man? It's basically what she's saying. That's what I heard. It's fucked up. That's a pretty good shot from somebody with a pizza emoji in their fucking bio. That's fire. Claire is definitely listening to this right now. Claire pulled out the AK on TJ. Fucking no happy Mother's Day on this side. Keep shooting until somebody die. It's in broad day, too. I mean, just know. she let she let chiquita speak on me on today's mother's day and she let it she let it spray and now i have a complex i have a complex con about my fucking how i be talk really be talking though well stop we'll stop eating bananas while you were on this podcast you would have this problem i have never recorded a podcast with a lozenge in my mouth maybe and maybe i don't know now i'm now i'm in my head about it don't get hey bro it's okay you're a professional we can move past this like you're gonna be okay but i understand that kind of feedback that kind of feedback can be you know for lack of a better term jarring yeah yeah i mean they tell you not to read the comments and i don't but then sometimes they just spring up on you like that it's fine though claire

Thank you for supporting the show. I mean, all feedback is welcome except that, but we'll take it, I guess. Do they have Mother's Day in Canada? It's a different day, I think. Is it? No, maybe it's the same. In Britain, it's a different day, though. I don't even know. I like that you don't know, though. Bro, I don't give a fuck. I mean, I called my mom. We chopped it up. You know what I'm saying? You politicked with mom? I politicked with Linda. checked on my sister and her babies everybody's good they're wearing masks they're fucking outside at 75 degrees living the dream amazing i know it must be nice um you know the big development for me is i i've gained access to a 35 pound kettlebell how did you do this so it is truly over for you hoes um i uh my friend and and known listener of the podcast adam ray uh he has a he had two and also he has an apartment that he, that he, uh, basically like sublets and the subletters out of town. So it's basically like a private gym with a single kettlebell. Um, so it's pretty sick. So I did your, I did your 40 minute kettlebell workout and my fucking, like my elbow, like the inside of my elbow, like where my, where my arm connects, you know what I'm saying? It's sore as a motherfucker. in inner arm forearm tendon yeah the thing it is my shit is burning bro damn he leaking he leaking but i did i hadn't lifted a weight in two months well out of i'd use bands i'd use bands but it ain't hit the same yeah bands uh don't hit the same as a as a trickish get up i will say no they won't but i mean i actually have always i always kind of thought kettlebells were a little bit joe rogany and lame um But even after one workout, I totally understand now a little better about how far-reaching they are as far as a full-body workout. Yeah, I think if you really do them the right way and have proper form, you can get a gnarly burn going on, man.

I was dripping with sweat and like in pain, which I love. So now my core routine is changing. Now it's the three days of running and we're going to hit the kettlebells. You have the three. You know what I'm saying? This is great news for me. It's about to get litty, boy. It's about to be because the running shit, I mean, I'm excelling from what I feel. I feel like my coach is telling me, Ben Rayner, my coach, is very encouraging. He's telling me what to do. So I feel like if I can advance that far with the kettlebell. I will finally be unstoppable. You're going to be unstoppable this season. This season, exactly, exactly. S-Z-N. CV season is upon us. Well, I'm happy for you. Thank you. It's been a long journey because I'm still looking at kettlebells of my own, and they're still impossible to find. It's kind of insane. I know. I think the market will adjust eventually. It'll correct itself. I wish we had a way to make them. We should just get a concrete pour and make our own. It just, it ain't worth it. It's not the same. No, it's definitely not. This is basically your, this is your Bitcoin crash. The great kettlebell shortage of 2020. Exactly. I mean, I don't know. I think a lot of people, and this is something I'm going to attempt maybe if I change locations, are like gyms and stuff are renting equipment to people. um which is yeah like a gym i've actually gone to in la and somehow i was on their mailing list like a private gym emailed me and they were renting everything like like this is just sitting here if you guys want a ferragun or a kettlebell or a fucking bench like we got it you know and um there's a legree studio here that's renting reformers like you can take the reformer home and put it in your fucking house it's really smart because like i would eat i would definitely pay like not whatever, but I would pay a substantial amount of money to rent real gear and have it because it's just like, it's, it's, it's necessary. Yeah. I mean, you know, some people get the Peloton, you can just rent the whole, you know, a true, a true real mindset. So if you're listening to this podcast and you live in Montreal, Canada, and you have access to dumbbells or other equipment and you want to break off CB, just holler at me. CB needs some, some 45 plates real bad.

I mean, you don't even know, bro. I mean, if I had a full bench set up, oh my God, shirts wouldn't fit. You know what I mean? The shelf would be on 1,000. Well, I'm glad that you're back on track to begin piecing your waif-like figure back into something resembling that of a man. Well, let's not go that far, but yes, thank you. Thank you for understanding the struggle I've been going through because while people have been dying, um i've been really worried about my muscle retention so it's you've i don't really you've been dying to get buff exactly i don't really see any differences there but some people might so you know oh and you know well we have a guest today yes uh the the writer uh natasha stagg who's having a real wave right now um She wrote a novel a few years ago that was well-received, but her new book, Sleeveless Fashion Image Media, New York 2011 through 2019, an essay collection, is really out here popping. If you know any good-looking people, they probably have that book on their shelf. If you know people that live in a cool metropolitan area, they probably have the book on their shelf. It's just, it's one of those books. You know what I mean? And I'm excited to talk to her because we're just on a, we've, you know, after having Lawrence on, we've course corrected. We're back on our media elite kind of style. Back to having some intelligent literary darlings on the show. Exactly. Which I know feels weird for you, but for me, that's obviously where I comfortably sit. Yeah, me know Reed and stuff like that. So hopefully she will be able to talk about Netflix and stuff as well. Because that's something that I have checked out. I know you've checked out Netflix. I've heard about Hulu from you too. So we can talk about that if you want. But let me bang her line. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian.

stateside with kai and carter this is covering a lot of our bases jason it's a it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app.

using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world... writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that. Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know. have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. What's up? How are you? Good. How are you? Oh, living the dream. You know, another day in paradise. Should I be able to see you? No, you can turn off the camera if you want. Okay, cool. I wasn't sure if that was like how you did it. Unless you want to present, you know. A PowerPoint? Yeah, exactly. I was hoping you were going to screen share on this podcast. What's up? Are you in New York? Yeah, I am. Have you been in New York the whole time? Yeah. We need a scene report.

Hi, I'm Jason, by the way. Oh, yeah, sorry. Nice to meet both of you. Yeah, you as well. Thanks for doing this. Oh, thanks for having me. How many podcasts are you doing a week nowadays? Zero. Zero? Have you ever done a podcast ever? I have been on podcasts, but they were like friends. So they weren't like a real one? Well, I mean, I was on Red Scare. It seems like a real one. Wow, don't flex on us. Don't flex on us like that. You didn't have to go that hard. Did you do that when you were on a book tour, though, or was that just a friend-to-friend situation? No, it was like a book thing. I mean, I've met them before, but we weren't super close or anything. It was like to promote my book, I guess. I didn't go on a book tour. I've never done that. Do those still happen, though, in the way that we use the term? I don't know. Yeah. They definitely do, but they sound miserable. It's like bookstores and, you know, middle American bookstores don't sound like a place where a lot of readers are. Yeah. It just doesn't sound like it would like get a lot more sales or anything. I would love to see the crowd for you and witch and taught the Barnes and Noble. I think that would be really eyeopening for everyone. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know because I feel like that stuff only matters for a very certain kind of writer. You know what I mean? I don't think that it costs a lot of money and time and doesn't really do much unless you're at a certain level. Yeah. I don't know. So what did you do? Just regular press and a reading in New York and L.A.? Yeah, exactly. I did one in New York, one in L.A., and one in Paris because I happened to be there for work. Were they in bookstores or were they in separate? Uh, they were, well, the one in LA was in a library and the one here was in a gallery and the one in Paris was in a bookstore. We love non-traditional event spaces, you know, just really keeping people on their toes. Yeah. I don't, I haven't been to, did you, does that stuff, do you have fun with that or is it just like part of the job? I have fun. I mean, I, all of it feels very like.

I'm just taking it as it comes. It doesn't seem like something that I'll end up doing forever, even though, you know, I've published two books. It still feels strange to have that be like the thing that I'm doing as a job, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get that though. Cause it's because, because at one point it seemed unachievable or because it just isn't, you're just not getting used to it no matter what happens. I, well, it definitely felt unachievable at some point for sure, but it also just doesn't, it's not like the type of job that's consistent no matter who you are. And like a lot of writers write maybe a book a year, but I don't know if that's even like good for them, you know, career wise. I don't, I don't either. Cause that's like putting out records too. It's like the same kind of thing. It's like, what is the right cadence? And I think it just fully depends on, you know, what you're capable of and who your market is. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people want their musicians to put out a record a year, but I don't know if a lot of people want their favorite authors to put out a book a year. I think part of that might be because we expect our favorite authors to take longer. We want them to think about it more. Well, we want them to think about it more, and we want to be able to read the books and have a little bit of time in between to look forward to the next one, maybe. I mean, I don't even have any. writers in mind when I'm saying this because it's like, I don't know who I'm looking forward to their next work. I just keep thinking of the cadence that Louis C.K. has where he releases an hour of new comedy every year and every other comedian has no idea how he's able to do that. So I think some people can just do it. Like how he's able to do it because it's so good? I think because it's so hard to do it and he's able to do it at a level that people consider high. Yeah. Whereas most people are like, oh, you could put out a book a year or a special a year or whatever a year, but it will probably suffer because you didn't put enough time into it. Some people can just shit them out. Yeah. I mean, I think that comedy too is so topical that that seems almost more doable to me.

I mean, he used to put out a TV show every season or whatever. He also does have this... He definitely hated the schedule of it. He was vocal about that. About the television show? Yeah, about any television show or any expectation at all. Yeah, actually, I didn't realize how much I had in common with Louis C.K. I guess I hate that too. I hate when people expect me to do things when I'm supposed to do them. I hate that, but I also hate when other people follow those rules because I'm like, if you were not ready to do something, you don't have to do it. Nobody wants that from you. Do you feel pressure from anyone? Is a publisher, an agent, is it like, let's go, let's go, let's go? Not for me. I think a lot of writers do feel that, but I don't have an agent, and my publisher is the most chill publisher in the world. Did you do both books without an agent? Yeah. Is that just by choice because you don't need it or don't feel like you need it? I'm just surprised, I guess. Oh, really? Chris is an agent queen, though. I am an agent queen. I love agents and managers and lawyers. That's really my shit. I like the idea of it, actually, but I don't have an agent or a manager or a lawyer. I don't even have an accountant. I definitely should. Yeah, we should talk about this a little bit. I have some general advice for you. I don't know if you're open to it or not. I'm open, yeah. Chris wants to be your manager at this point. Yeah, exactly. So we had you in this pocket. No, honestly, some of that stuff is more important than others, and I think it's like a comfort level thing. But I do think that a lawyer is the most valuable of those people, in my experience. Wow, really? What do you mean by those people, Chris? I mean by the blood-sucking side of the entertainment business. You know what I mean? Those dirty Hollywood types. No, but I just think that a lawyer is – I mean that's to me – a manager and an agent are interesting jobs and they're important to make the whole world operate and keep oil in the machine. But I think that a lawyer is more of a specialized skill.

They're like, you can't really fake that. You know what I mean? Like I could negotiate something in my, for, for myself, like from a manager agent standpoint, but if somebody sends me a hundred, you know, a hundred page document and tells me to review it and, and redline it and send it back, I can't do that. Right. That's the only, you know, that's, that's it. I don't even know what a redline is, but I don't either. I don't, a redline is when you. Just kidding. you mark up a contract and send it back for the, for other counsel to review. See, I don't, it's like, what would I have that needed that much attention? Well, we don't, I don't know yet. If they're like, we'll give you, we'll give you 10% of, of sales after we pay it back. And then you would cross that out with a red line and write in 80%. And then they would come back and be like, I don't know. Right. It, but it does cost money. I mean, but I guess if you're, if you're, if you're negotiating with your publisher who you're friendly with and that makes things more complicated, I guess. Well, yeah, my publisher doesn't even work with agents. You're saying like that is a known, like he, that's a, that's a hill he's on. Like I'm not, I don't do that. Um, right. Yeah. Wow. It's a group. It's semiotex. So like a very small publisher, but I, I've been a fan of them forever. So to me, they're very big, you know, but they're technically a small group of people and they just, yeah, they do things differently. Did you, did you approach them originally with the novel or did they approach you? I approached them. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, that's nice then. At least it went off without a hitch. Yeah. Everything. I mean, if, if I had not gotten in touch with them and they, you know, chose to work with me, then I probably would have gotten an agent or I would have given up maybe. I don't know. All right, look, there's two ways this is going to go. I'm going to give up. You guys, let's flip a fucking coin. Well, if you would have given up, what is your backup career plan? Well, I was at the time working at a magazine, so maybe I would have kept doing that. I think something about publishing a book made me more confident.

And I just, I quit my job pretty soon after that. And then I started doing like creative consulting or whatever, you know, like all this. You don't have to say or whatever. Luckily, both of your friendly co-hosts here traffic in that same kind of world. I know, but that's why you know it doesn't really mean a lot. It's like whatever you want it to be, right? That's right. It really, I mean... It depends on how good you are at lying to yourself and how smart or stupid you are. Yeah. Well, it depends on the audience, too. I think that after... I'm 37 years old, and I would say it took... until I was 35, 36 to really be able to explain what I do to someone who has no idea what it is. Maybe by the time I'm 36, which will be later this year, I'll be able to explain it. You're months away from having your life figured out. Just wait. It's right around the corner. This quarantine is really not a roadblock for you. Well, I think it's not because of it being like a hard thing to explain. I just think that the world had to catch up and create the language to explain what it actually is. Because before, I would just kind of tell myself like, I guess I just get paid to tell people what is cool and what is not cool. And in my mind, that sounds like the best job you could ever have. Because you don't really have to do shit in terms of like actual labor. Right. Other than paying attention to what's going on in the world. But it's different than trend forecasting because that used to be a thing. That still is a thing, which is kind of surprising to me. Yeah, I think it's definitely still a thing, but people would assume that that's what you did if you used to say, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. They're to me very different, but probably not to most people. Yeah, they're definitely different. But I think for whatever reason, trend forecasting is a term that my mom might understand. You know what I mean? If she was having a good day. I know what trends are. I know what the forecast is. We got this. Put them together, Chris. I know what you're doing. But my parents didn't understand for a long time. And I think still, my dad's my accountant. I still don't think he fully has a grasp on it. Really? No. I think he's more just annoyed that income comes from so many different places. And that makes his job harder. Yeah. It is annoying, though. You know? I mean, it is.

Annoying for me too, but like, you know, I mean, I've just never, I don't, but do you think that it's easier to call, I mean, at this point, it's probably easier to call yourself an author or a writer because that's such a known thing, right? Yeah, I still don't do it really. I usually, I say I'm a copywriter because that's kind of what I end up doing most. Yeah. So that's just easier to say. Yeah, I agree. And I think that's similar to, because if you tell somebody you're a copywriter, they know what it means. If you tell them you're an author and you tell them the title of your book and they don't know it, It doesn't hit the same. Yeah, exactly. You're like, well, better luck next time. Actually, no, no, no, I didn't mean I'm a copywriter. I'm a copywriter. Yeah. Do you, well, is the copywriting, because I do some of that myself. Do you find that like exercising a different muscle or is it just like I do this to pay the bills and it's fine? It's definitely exercising a different muscle. I mean, I find it way more difficult than writing for fun or whatever, like creative writing. It's trying to get into the head of some company or brand. It's very different. I find it pretty difficult, to be honest. I do too. I think that if you work with someone long enough, I think it becomes much easier. That really makes a difference. I know a lot of people that do stuff one-off. I could do it, of course, but I think it would be really laborious for me. Yeah. The one-off projects are so much more difficult. And then people don't understand that your hours are going to be way longer than, you know, like then if you had been working with that person for a while. Yeah. Once you get in the groove. Yeah. Yeah. Once you get in the groove, it's like, all right, I kind of know what this is in my head. I can operate that way. But yeah, for, for off the rip, it's tough. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that's why when, when it hits, it hits. I mean, there's some shit that we all can remember. It's just like legendary. because someone did that work the right way, you know? And I think that's why copywriting is still a pretty well-paid job. I wonder, I was just talking with a friend about this because, you know, it's not as well-paid as some. It depends on what company you're writing for, I guess. Yeah, but it's also just this, it's so difficult to actually stand up for yourself as a copywriter because there's this parallel.

career path that seems similar like what you're saying is like there are journalists and there are copywriters and there are authors but they're all kind of doing the same thing to like the lay person and so you're like well a dollar a word you know is kind of like a standard for so many outlets and so then like if a company hires you to copyright and offers you a dollar a word like You're like, nah, bro. Yeah, it's like, hell no. But also, I'm sure a lot of people are like, yeah. So it's really hard to actually get anybody to understand that that's not okay. And it's become this kind of, I don't know, my friend who also copyrights was just complaining about it to me. Well, I think all businesses are fucked up from millennials doing things for free. Exactly. They fucked up the whole game. We fucked ourselves up. Yeah, I guess we are millennials by definition. Like young people. Jason, did you intern and do shit like that? You didn't, right? I did intern, but never anything in the copywriting type of world, I would say. Where did you intern? I interned at KCRW, which is like the NPR radio station here in LA. Oh, cool. Which I was just telling my girlfriend that I did that yesterday. And she's like, oh, that's kind of hot that you interned at an NPR station. And I was like, do you want to know what I did? And she's like, yeah. And I'm like, when the DJ would play a song, I would write it down on a piece of paper and hold it up against a glass window. And then somebody would write it down. And then that's it. It's really hot. I just never interned because I didn't get into this stuff until I was too old for that. Also, I don't know if interning is in your personality type, Chris. I don't think so either. You would have just sold drugs. That's true. Yeah, you're probably right. But I think it's valuable in some ways. I don't understand working and not getting paid. That's really hard for me to compute in my mind.

But when you're like 20, you don't really deserve to get paid sometimes. I've seen a lot of situations where an intern came in with a great attitude, did an amazing job, and was hired within three months or something like that. All it takes is just, hey, I'm hungrier and thirstier than all you guys. And can afford to work for nothing. Well, now you're speaking specifically about New York media internships, which are classically, I mean, it's like working at Vogue. You can just go down the masthead and recognize the last names. It's the best. But you can tell when the intern is like, I'm taking two buses to get here and I'm eating Top Ramen. I'm still doing it. Those are the people that when the job comes around, they're the first person to get offered. Did you intern, Natasha? No, I couldn't afford to intern. Yeah, it's pretty tough. I was working through college. I worked in high school. I never didn't have a job because there were jobs to be had. I've always had a job too, but I think we're all three that age where we've kind of always had a job. What kind of jobs are you having in high school, dog? I worked at a nursing home. I worked as a secretary's assistant in an office. Nursing home sounds rough. Yeah, let's talk about that. What was the vibe? What was the vibe? I mean, what compelled you to do that? The vibe was death. I know the vibe wasn't good, I guess. Well, I worked in a nursing home that was really close to where I lived. And I think it was probably just that. It was like proximity. Like I could walk there. I didn't have a car. So I was like 16 or 15. And I walked to this nursing home and was like a hostess. So I would just give people their trays of food during lunch.

Wow. Okay. Well, I worked at a dry cleaners where I was able to skateboard outside with my friends most of the time and steal money. That's cool. Which is a little more upbeat, I feel like. There were no real perks to my job. I was looking for the perks. I didn't see any. So I'm glad that you offered that up. Where are you from? You're not from New York, are you? No. I grew up half in Tucson, Arizona and half in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Very interesting. That's where I was. I was in Michigan working at a nursing home. Grand Rapids, the Tucson of Michigan, I say. Exactly. Not really. Did you go to school in Grand Rapids? I was in high school in Grand Rapids and then I went to University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor had a legendary punk scene when I was growing up. Yeah. And I never understood that, but I guess it was just like a college town situation. It was where the MC5 like got together and it was, I don't know why it made it like that town made so much sense for all these things to happen, but it was like the White Panthers and Iggy Pop. There was like a house that was kind of like the famous Stooges. punk house or whatever, but I don't know if it was like all the rumors about every big building in Ann Arbor was that like some punk thing happened there. I like that. I'm from Atlanta and Athens is very similar. Cause it's basically just like REM is from there and it kind of all revolves around that in the same way. Like they actually. REM bought all of the historic buildings in downtown Athens so the city couldn't change, so people wouldn't fuck it up, which is pretty incredible. Really? I didn't know that. Yeah, they own a handful of pretty important buildings and venues, I think as a band, actually. That's actually punk as hell.

It's punk. Owning property is really punk. Exactly. It's very Elon Musk kind of vibe. I like it. People really hate landlords right now. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it fully. People outing celebrities as landlords, I don't understand why that's so surprising. Yeah, of course they are. What else do you think they're going to do with all this money? And they know that the money is not going to keep coming forever. That's very true. Real estate is a great investment, you guys. I've heard that. Natasha and I live in New York where real estate investment requires a little more capital than you. Yeah, it's super cheap here in LA. No, I know it's not. I know. I'm sorry I made it sound like you live in Sacramento. No shots. No shots. No, it's fine. I don't, I don't, I mean, it's, it's, it's wild out here. Prices are wild, but I mean, I don't think they're going to forgive the rent. So I'm just going to keep paying it. I'm really curious. It's like, it's, wouldn't they have forgiven it already? Yeah. And I also have, I don't know why we had a friend on this podcast. He's like, he owns that brand, Noah, the clothing brand. And he was talking about, he's like. I paid rent because I can. And that is like kind of what I felt like I should do basically. Because if I don't pay rent when it, when it's due, it's going to fall on someone who's going to owe someone money is basically what he was saying. You know? Yes. I mean, I haven't paid rent for this month. Are you pushing it as long as you can? I'm kind of just like, I'm like of two minds about it. I don't have a strong. What does, what, what say your landlord about this? Yeah. He hasn't said anything. He's, I mean, also I have no idea what he's doing. I'm really curious what he's doing. He's like a, he is the head of a giant Hasidic family that lives in Brooklyn, but has like a home upstate. So I'm sure they've fled, you know? Yeah, definitely. Where, where do you, do you live in, do you live in the city or do you live in Brooklyn? I live in the East village. I moved in.

for the first time to Manhattan. Welcome to the neighborhood. I live on 4th and A. Oh, no way. I live on 2nd and B. Maybe I shouldn't say that on a podcast, but I'm really close to you. Yeah, I live above Mass Books, like in that building. Oh, my God. I love Mass Books. Chris, you're being a little too forthcoming with your exact home address here. Bro, these fucking haters can come for me, bro. I'm good. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. Chris, I'm more worried about your super fans than your haters. Oh, yes, yes. Chris has a lot of reply guys as of late, and he's been dealing with that. Are they guys? Are they just guys or girls? No, of course they're fucking guys. They're fucking budget versions of me and my friends. You don't have any reply girls, Chris? Fuck no. I mean, maybe a few, but that's what I'm writing about. I'm writing about reply guys right now. Oh, really? Yes, because I think that there's been an influx of them. since corona because people are so logged on and so wound up yeah definitely i feel a responsibility to stay um in touch with my reply guys because those are you know those are the ones you know we if we put out a t-shirt those are the motherfuckers who are buying it you know no i no i don't think it's not even it's more just though i think the term started with guys that would do it to women and that was like where it comes from and i think that it's just it's really flown the coop it's fucking spread out like a virus no pun intended you're you're trying to um i guess you're you're taking back the reply guy yes exactly back to the man exactly exactly but i just don't I mean, I lay this out in the piece, but there's just distinctive types. And that's what I think is so interesting. There's such archetypes to different strands. Like indicas and sativas? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's a very similar breakdown, but it's just like, I don't, it's really hard to be online right now. It really is. So you're saying the reply guy is a type of person and it's not necessarily predicated on the fact that he replies and that he's a guy.

I think that there are different types of reply guys. I think they can be broken down into different sub-genres. So they all do have to reply. They have to reply. Yes, yes, yes. First rule of reply guy. First rule of a reply guy. You have to reply. But yeah, so that's my theory is that after being replied to enough, I've been able to identify the different types and can now break them out into categories and then identify their features. What is the most dangerous reply guy out there? I'm not going to give away the fuck. Give us a taste, Chris. Fucking sauce right now, Jason. I'm sure the Paris Review will be fine if you lay out one of the many genius of reply guys. First of all, fuck you. It's for sportsillustrated.com. Is it? No, no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I believed it. It's for GQ. It's for GQ.com, which is Sports Illustrated in some ways right now. Sports Illustrated for close. Exactly. Well, I think the most dangerous one is something that I define as the toe-to-toe reply guy. who thinks they're on your level in every way and then want to show that they're smarter than you or know more about the subject than you do. And they think that you will be pleased by them. No, no, no. They want to bait you into arguing with them so they can be right and prove that they're right, even though you might have a blue check and more followers. So they're probably just doing that for attention, not for your adoration. Well, it's also like, why are you guys so serious? I don't really care. I don't care if you blur more than Oasis. You're just a loser. I don't need to argue about that. You know what I mean? The level of time and effort put into it is more from them than is from the original poster. Do you think you were ever a reply guy yourself at one time in your life?

Unfortunately, Jason, I think maybe we all have been if you're online enough. I think reply guy truly comes down to replying to people you don't know at all and don't know in real life. Do you have a lot of reply guys? Me? I don't. I specifically don't. I'm pretty sure. You're pretty sure? I feel like talking to my friends. I'm like, what am I missing? Like, this is a phenomenon that has not really... You're saying you're doing something wrong because you don't have more? I don't have any reply guys. And I don't have any... None of my exes have contacted me during quarantine, like all my friends say that their exes have. Oh, actually, we need to talk about this. Like, I'm definitely doing something wrong, right? I think so. Yeah, I think so. Do you want to hear from your exes? I didn't until I was, yeah, like, I don't, yeah, I don't. You may be missing out at least on just what am I doing wrong if Chad has not hit me up. I just, yeah, I'm just a little, I have FOMO about that. I want to see them spiraling or, you know, going through something. DM'd or texted any of your exes? No. I mean, it could be on me. I'm quarantining with my boyfriend. I was about to hit. Door swings both ways, sweetie. Yeah, cool. Thank you for that detail. That explains it a little better. Well, yeah. I think if I was alone, I would be hitting people up. But the fact that they don't know that, I'm not alone. I'm getting a nice glimpse into, into your mind. Look into that. Look into the psyche right now. Really what's going on in there. So are you glad that you're quarantining with Bay or, or how, how is it all going? It's going well. I really thought it would be, you know, a lot. Yeah. I mean, I live in a studio apartment and that's a lot, you know, cause it's not like I,

moved into this place thinking that I would have a roommate because we live separately normally. Um, so it's one of those situations, but honestly it's going really well. So are you able to work though? Is there a place for you to sequester yourself and concentrate? Yeah. I mean, yeah. Just close. Do you have nowhere to go? No, I mean, I think I'm pretty good at just like focusing even if stuff is going on around me. But both of us have sort of designated parts of the room as our own accidentally. You have to draw lines in the sand during this difficult time. Do you have any tips that you can share with us for staying focused and productive when you're in a studio with somebody else? Oh, my God. Because I have a problem with it. Are you in a studio? No, I'm not. No, this motherfucker's in, like, a three-bedroom house in Glendale. Don't feel bad. Of course. Well, you know, LA, what can I say? But, you know, even then, it's still, you know, no matter the square footage, I have a little trouble with staying focused and working when also wanting to make sure that... the uh you know the thoughts and feelings and cares of your partner are being taken care of as well it's really difficult there are things that i did not expect or could not have predicted it's like i mean everybody feels that way i guess yeah of course i don't know i think you just have to get lucky and be proud of yourself for choosing a partner that is cool enough and you're able to enjoy living with in a, in a small space. Yeah. And I'm really lucky in that way. And I think, I, I, I don't know. I know so many people who are like casually dating, who considered quarantining with somebody that wasn't their soulmate. You're like, you're a month and a half in and you're like, are we doing this? Are we moving in together right now?

Yeah, but I haven't heard any really good stories from it, honestly. I want to hear a great mistake quarantine story. When you say a good story, I'm assuming that means something bad happens? Yeah, exactly. The problem is I don't think those stories are to come out until post-quarantine. I think so too, yeah. They can't release it while under lock and key because then it would cause a rift. Right. I know that's the problem with these like zoom hangouts too. Cause I, I used to have like a ladies night with my, with a few of my friends, like probably like once a month and we'd go get margaritas and like talk about our boyfriends. And now our boyfriends are in the room. You know, it's like, it's really difficult. And we're like, it's going so well. I can't believe how well it's going. You know? And it's like, I'm like, you guys, one of them just started dating somebody like right before this thing. I'm like, come on. I can't wait for this to end so I can really hear how it went. Yeah. I mean, I've heard of people, I think, I don't remember who it was, but I feel like somebody was tweeting about doing therapy in their car. Because it's the only way they could get privacy. Oh, my God. I do it on my fire escape. I just haven't done it, which might not be good for my mental health, but I just didn't know what to do. I think it was Raven Smith who said that every week he has his boyfriend goes and, like, sits in the car or goes for a drive for two hours so he can have alone time. Yeah, he does. Like, I think the car has to be moved. So he's, like, stay gone for a little while longer so I can have some alone time. Yeah. I mean, it's a hard thing to ask, but I think it's kind of necessary to ask or to be like, hey, you have to synchronize all of the boyfriends of everyone in your girl group to all go for like a walk at the same time. So you guys can have margs and talk about how you hate your boyfriends. Right. It's important. How they don't be cleaning the bathroom and stuff. It's true. They don't. I really.

really miss shit talking. You know what I mean? So I think that that's, you know, it's necessary. We have to let it out somehow. I miss that too. And it is kind of a in-person thing. Usually it doesn't hit the same over a fucking delayed zoom. Yeah. Yeah. Not everyone is blessed with Chris Black's reassuring cackle laugh that, that gives me that dopamine hit. You know, I know. I'm sorry. You can't, I'm sorry. I can't package it and sell it. Um, if only. Is the, are you cooking? Yeah, of course. Were you doing that before? Not so much. No, I, I really like restaurants. I also think that I am a really good cook, but I've never like talked about it, you know? Well, this is pretty sick. So you've never cooked before, but you're saying you're really good at it. No, I have. I mean, I used to live alone back when I was like in grad school and like, I definitely like became a good cook. before all this i hope you're ready to start bragging on your cooking right now because it's happening well i just i usually just follow recipes i'm not like an inventive cook i'm just saying like i'm i can make something really well but i don't like to do it really like yeah easy fine it's like everyone can do this you know you would think that everyone can do it but a lot of people are really bad at it I don't attempt. I hate it. I have no interest. I never have. I mean, it's bad. I don't have a pot or a pan, which is a known thing. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You use your oven to store shoes like Carrie Bradshaw? T-shirts, but yes. Thank you for saying that. I'm the Carrie Bradshaw of my group. His oven is full of vintage Lemonheads T-shirts. Look, what's more important? I don't need to eat. I just don't. I'm afraid. that if I got into it, it would be a rabbit hole because I'd want to be good at it, so I'd want to buy a bunch of stuff. I'd want to buy all the gear. Because Jason, he's being modest, is an incredible cook, like restaurant level. So he's got all the tools and all the fun shit, and he's been doing it for years, so he's good at it. But I just don't, the time commitment seems insane to get that good. Yeah, I don't want that either. I don't want all this stuff.

But that's maybe because I live in such a small apartment. Look, I mean, I'm not going to fit a Nancy Meyers kitchen in my apartment either. But in theory, there's a lot of toys to buy, which is attractive to any new hobby to me. That attracts me to things. Yeah, I've noticed that a lot about people cycling in my neighborhood. There's a lot of fat dudes who have $10,000 bikes and spandex kits and all that stuff. You can tell they're just doing it because they want to buy shiny stuff. I think that sort of applies to the kitchen world as well. It 100% does, but I miss restaurants. The gym in a restaurant, I'm really salivating for. Oh, I don't miss the gym. Are you working out at home? Are you doing some yoga at home? No, nothing. That's cool. How does your body feel? It's the same, but I don't know. I didn't work out that much before. I just, I'm like, I like the excuse to not work out at all now. Do you walk? I walk, but only when somebody else will walk with me. Otherwise I'm just bored. Have you checked out? You should listen to a podcast. That's true. I do listen to podcasts walking sometimes, but usually that's like when I have to go somewhere to the grocery store or something. But yeah. I don't like exercising, and I've actually lost weight, I think. Damn. Now we're talking about goals. You bitch. I don't know how. I think it's because my boyfriend is vegan, and so we've just been eating vegan. Homemade cooking is a known weight loss. That's true. Because of the different ingredients that are going into it. Yeah. So you're a vegan person now, for the most part. Yeah, but I don't mind it. You're a vegan sympathizer. Sympathizer. Were you ever vegan in college or high school or anything? No. Unfortunately, I was. My parents were hippies, and they mostly ate vegetarian, so I wasn't a big meat person ever. Did you ever have a hippie phase yourself, or were you rebellious against that? Definitely not. I didn't have that at all. I didn't even smoke weed, really. I was not into it. Your parents were chiefing in the crib?

Yeah. Such a strange thing to like, cause I knew, you know, of all the friends I had, I definitely had like, you know, one out of 20 of my friends, parents like would smoke weed openly. And it was just such a crazy concept to me. It doesn't make you want, well, I don't know. It depends on the family. I'm assuming it turns you off. It doesn't make you want to do it. Yeah. It definitely turns you off. Yeah. It's like, it's not cool if your parents are doing it. Right. But they look, they must look like they're having fun now. Playing on those bongos? Yeah, they did that. Did they wear funny clothes and shit, or were they pretty normal? But just when they got home, they were cheaping and playing bongos. I guess they dressed pretty normal. Yeah, they didn't have dreadlocks or anything. Okay, cool. They weren't wearing weird tunics or anything. No, not really. Were they listening to Fish and The Grateful Dead and stuff? No. What were they into? Like Laurel Canyon folks. Oh, the cool shit. Yeah. That's true. That's cool. I know. I wish my parents aren't cool at all. And I just wonder what would have happened if I had cool parents. You would probably still be living in Georgia. That's true. Yeah. Like hippie parents are cool. That's not cool. Well, it's cooler than like religious accountant and nurse. True. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I love my parents. They're amazing. There's one thing that makes hippie parents very uncool, and that is having no money. Yeah. That's where it's bad. And kind of having no excuse either. Like, I have to explain for a long time why I've never had money, I think. Because I'm, like, white. You know, it's like, actually, my parents both came from. like the new york area and like are white and should have had money they just made some wrong turns down that road just never ever had it as adults you know we're like anti-capitalism and anti-belongings maybe yeah they weren't they weren't hoarders then no okay that's good well do you feel like as you've gotten older you are starting to take on some of those personality traits that you didn't realize when you were younger

I definitely still don't have money and should. And I don't have a lot of things. That's yeah, I guess we're similar in those ways. Do they think it's cool that you're doing this or do they like, are they like get a job? No, I mean, I think, well, my mom died when I was a teenager. So she doesn't think anything, but my dad is really like, cool about whatever I do. Yeah, if you tell your hippie dad, hey, I wrote a book and I got published, he's going to be like, far out. That's amazing. Far out. Yeah, he does say far out. Honestly, your dad sounds pretty cool. My dad says far out a lot, actually. I should start saying that. That would be very cool if you took that on. It wouldn't be put on because you'd be like, oh, my dad said it growing up. I took to it. Right. Well, have you thought about ways of making more money quickly now? Like, you know, Patreon podcast, OnlyFans, things like that? Oh, I mean, I've thought about them like I understand what they are and I'm interested in the concept. I definitely have an aversion to that, but I don't know what that aversion comes from. kind of conservative way of thinking about my own finances, maybe. Like, you don't want to get rich? Like, that's not a priority? Yeah, I actually don't want to get rich, but I wouldn't mind it, probably. I just, it's like this, I don't know, I kind of, I like the validation of, like, book publishing more than I like the validation of, like, a lot of money and a lot of fans. Does that make sense? You like honest days pay for an honest day's work. I mean, sure. I don't know if that's what I have right now. I'm like a consultant and I work freelance. I don't like my own hours. But it's like the idea of banking on some like the gig economy. It just sounds very like.

flash in the pan to me i understand that but so you don't have bitcoin is what you're saying no you didn't do a heavy bitcoin investment i'm surprised but okay i think i'm just afraid of it i'm like very afraid for for the people who don't who have like tried a million other ways to become famous and then like this is the way that they did become famous but they don't have any backup plan and i'm like Like, this is kind of solidifying that you won't be famous in another way later on. You know? Damn. That hits below the belt. I'm sorry. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm not talking about you guys, but... No, no, that was, you know, that's something that I had never considered. And it makes a lot of sense while also being, you know, kind of depressing. But I'm probably wrong. People have such amnesia now about everything that celebrities do or that writers do or whatever you're talking about. So you can probably erase your past very easily by just... layering on some other thing. I do think that if you just keep plowing, it will be fine to some extent, depending on the offense, you know what I mean? But I think for a lot of things, if you just keep your head down and keep plowing, I think that the, I mean, for better or worse, like the news cycle is such a breakneck pace that it's impossible for people to digest at all. Yeah. And if people deep down really like you, they want to forgive you. Right. And they want you to put out more content, no matter what it is. We love content as a society. Yes. We love the content. And plowing. And plowing, yes. Also plowing, yes. Has Hollywood approached you about doing something? No, I wish. I'm actually surprised. Like a movie version of my novel? Or like screenwriting? We're talking about maybe a Hulu series. Yeah, maybe a straight, maybe a straight, yeah. HBO Max, 10 part, 10 episodes, straight, straight to television. No, I mean.

It seems like you could screenwrite, they could adapt, they could adapt even one of the essays. I mean, you know, writing a full movie coming out of like a Vanity Fair article is very common these days. True. The Kling Ring. Yeah, maybe the high maintenance guy will... we'll get a set up a meeting for you somewhere. I could see something like that happening. I hope so. Maybe if I had an agent, these things would happen. I didn't, I didn't want to say anything, but that, that would make a little bit of a difference. I mean, I just think that if you, I think that, um, you know, right now is the time and not to sound crass, but to monetize, you know what I mean? Like, and in a way that's cool and creative for you and something you feel comfortable with. But I do think that like, When you're getting all the press and everything's so well received and everybody's talking about it, you know, it's the time to move if you want to move. I like that this podcast is going in a shark tank type of direction. I really appreciate it. I just think it's, I mean, when something captures people and people are talking, it means something. You know what I mean? And I think that. obviously goes beyond monetary, but I do think that the person responsible for it should be compensated. You know what I mean? In a real way, for being able to create something that has captured the zeitgeist, I think that should be rewarded with money, for lack of a better term. Yeah, I know. I kind of have that feeling too, but it's funny that I'm not more upset about it. Because I definitely, you know, it's like I published two books that I... have been told are very popular but you didn't know it you know like looking at the numbers according to your instagram um dms people do enjoy the book yeah but you are not a millionaire from that yes but when when it came when it when it initially when the most recent book came out it was it was everywhere like you were unavoidable for a little while um Did you feel like a, did you feel something happening or was it, was it exciting or did you, did you think more would happen or has it been about what you, what you expected? Um, do you mean the first time around I was expecting, what was I expecting from publishing a novel? Yeah. It went beyond. Walk us through the high. I was, I was definitely like. Feeling yourself?

the worst maybe or I was expecting either kind of you know like not as much attention or even some negative attention but I don't know why I think I'm just very skeptical of people and the way they read things because so much of our culture right now is like hot takes And also, I think negative reviews are more fun to read, so I end up reading them more. That's the truth. Do you read reviews? Well, I read other people's books. You don't read your own, though, right? No, I do, of course. Do you? Yeah. And also, the negative reviews, that's kind of like Chris's worst reply guy. Those are people who are using a negative review as a way to... pierce through the armor and really affect you personally as a person yeah right and i well i haven't gotten any so far so i'm really happy about that big flex big flex but i do think that that's true i mean i think that like um negative reviews are more fun to read and to write no matter what the genre is um you know but i that that doesn't bode well for the creative people that are making the stuff Yeah, I mean, it's a really crazy thing to want to do, like write a book and publish it and then expect people to not attack it or even to pay attention to it at all, knowing these things about our culture. I think they would almost want to attack you more than the actual book. Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. a cultural commentator, you know, it's like, I, I kind of don't ever take a solid stance on anything I'm talking about. So yeah, by my book, it's basically kind of like wishy washy takes, but they're great. They're excellent to read. That's what it is. I mean, I know that about it, but I also like didn't, I wasn't trying to sell it the second book or I guess either one could fall into this conversation, but I, I wasn't trying to.

have a take you know like it was do you withhold the like especially with sleeveless are those are you trying to purposely hold some of that back and just and just talk about it in the way that you want to talk about it or is this how you actually feel as far as like i i'm not making a giant stance either way i think it's just really hard for me to come to a conclusion about anything because i'm so my mind changes about things constantly And if I know that about myself, why would I put it down in writing? Yeah, it's like don't get a tattoo because I can never be sure if I'll like it or not. I've never gotten a tattoo. Sounds like writing books is a great career path for you. Yeah, you've really found your needs. Yeah, find one of the hardest things in the world to do and then mix that with your troubled personality. You've got a witch's broom. But if you're able to pull it off, then... That's really, you know, it's twice as hard. That's twice as impressive. I don't, yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, you could look at it, you know, like if I think not making a definitive, you know, stance and just exploring things deeply is almost like it's so rare nowadays that that's maybe part of the appeal. Well, that's what I always like to read myself also. Definitive stances? No. Oh, okay. Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's important to show both sides and weigh both options and have an open mind about all of that. But also, it's great to write a definitive thing on something, a hard stance on something, and then beautiful to see somebody change their mind about it and write a whole new thing about it as well. You have twice the opportunity to create content. I just find that when something gets to the like a true fervor pitch, when something becomes so popular that it's unavoidable, I cannot help myself but form a definitive opinion. Really? I can't. It's beyond my control. Oh, I'm the opposite. I'm like, I better stay away from that one. Well, we can try a few out on you. What do you think about Hamilton? I've never seen it. See? That response? Yeah, we've never seen it either, but we can openly hate on it a lot.

Can you? I feel like I would need to see it first. No, that's your first mistake. Huge mistake. That's a smart way to look at it, but you're wrong. That's your stance on that. Yes, that's my stance. What do we have next, TJ? Netflix. I mean, sorry, FX's Dave. I've never even heard of that. Good for you. Yeah, better. Okay, how about the new Fiona Apple album? Okay, so I do. I'm like a huge Fiona Apple fan. And I've only listened to it once all the way through. And I wish it was better, to be honest. My thoughts exactly. Yeah, same. Because I love everything she's ever done. And this is like, you know, something that I've been waiting for. And I was like, yeah, no. But you almost know that it's not going to hit the way you want it to at this point. I guess, but I really liked her last album. I did too. I did too. I just think that I saw a lot of people being like, just let us have this right now. When I saw that, I was like, guys, you're not thinking clearly. If you're saying that, you have no leg to stand on with this whole thing. But I think that she is so compelling and the press was so good and interesting and she was pretty forthcoming that I think that it was just kind of like a perfect storm. Right. It was a good New Yorker profile. Yeah, it was fun to read. That's the thing. That's what was even maybe more disappointing is that that New Yorker profile was great. And there's a couple other things that were good too. And then the music just didn't deliver the way I thought it was going to. Right. But you're a big film head, right? I do like movies. I feel like I noticed. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I just see you on your stories. You post a lot. It's good for me. I feel like I'm getting educated. Oh, I'm just watching a lot right now. I know, but I'm serious. It's educational. Really? I haven't seen or heard of. Yeah, it's funny because that's where I am getting replies.

Where people are like, oh, do you recommend this movie? Or are you just saying that you watched it? And I'm like, I just watched it. I love that. That's so sick. I cannot confirm or deny. I just watched the movie. I can't. I can't say it. I'm like, who are you? I don't know if you would like it or not. Interesting. That's incredible. I just post food pics on my stories. So I guess people assume that I like the food that I'm eating. But maybe I should start being like. Like, damn. Like, I made this food, but it wasn't great. This wasn't actually good. Can I get a bite of that lasagna? And I'll be like, honestly, I don't know if you like it. I don't know if you're a lasagna person. Do you remember the last movie that you saw in the theaters? Oh, that's a good question. I was thinking about that earlier, and mine is very bad. Oh. Well, I think it was... When did Uncut Gems come out? That makes sense if you're not a big movie goer. That's also something that you can have a definitive stance on. What? That I went to see Uncut Gems? No, your thoughts on the film. Oh, I loved it. You know what I thought about it? I liked it, but I think it made me like the first one more. Which is the first one? I'm sorry, not the first one, but the previous one, the Robert Pattinson one. Good time? Good time. Oh, I liked Uncut Gems more. Thank you. Wow. I'm glad that a New York film could finally get a definitive answer. So that was the last movie that you saw in the theaters? Maybe not. It makes sense. Chris, do you remember yours? I don't know, dude. It hadn't been in a while. It might have been Parasite. Over the holidays. Mine was Sonic the Hedgehog. What the fuck, dude? I don't know. Yeah, of course. It was actually better than you think it's going to be. If you run out of stuff to watch, you know, give it a shot. I would watch that for sure. It's not bad. Where are you watching this stuff? Because some of the stuff you're posting is relatively obscure. Are you finding it on like torrent sites or is it like Criterion? It was like a friend of a friend's, you know, drive that they just like

gave me before quarantine oh that's pretty amazing so yeah it's really great very cool okay that's very cool so okay great so you're stealing content good to know um i'd be torn i i that's actually pretty cool though because i feel like then there's it's there's a there's a finite number but at least it's like somewhat curated for you well yeah there's a finite number but also it's like thousands if not tens of thousands. Like it's a lot of movies to choose from. You got a fat ass drive. Yeah. It's a big old Lacey. Do you, do you, how do you select every night? Do you just go through the, are you going alphabetical or are you going just close your eyes? Working through it. Yeah. I mean, well, my boyfriend knows a lot about movies, so he will say like, Oh, that director, we should try it and whatever. Do you try to watch them all the way through, or do you shut shit off if it's trash? I try to get through all of it. I won't post something unless I watch the whole movie. I try to go through, and my girlfriend likes to abandon ship if it's not working out so well. But sometimes she'll do it in the third act, second, third act. Oh, that's frustrating. Yeah, that's too much. I've tried to watch some higher quality content during this lockdown, but I've been only feeding myself disgusting candy. And I feel like your story encourages me because I see something I like and then maybe I write it down, but I haven't really ventured into actually watching it yet. I wonder if I should put together more of a guide because I think a lot of it is it's taken me several tries to get all the way through. And then I'm proud of myself for watching. a criterion collection thing, but a lot of it I wouldn't necessarily recommend. I think the world could use that. Yeah, I think it'd be very... Yeah, if they put a guide together like Dazed will repost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Well, and also I'm like punctuating all of this with the reality shows that I watch. I was hoping so, because I mean, that's all I can talk about. So please walk me through your top picks.

Okay, well, I'm only watching shows. I'm not going back and binging anything right now, but maybe I will when all my shows end. But right now, luckily, I have Real Housewives of New York, Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. The best one, in my opinion. Beverly Hills? Yes. Oh, this season's really good so far. They're getting lit. They're crazy out there. Yeah. New York is really good this season, too, though. Have you been watching it? I've been watching some of it and I don't know why, but it just seems more fitting in Los Angeles. Like the whole thing seems better there. Our housewives are more real than yours. Sure. And, and Mauricio is so hot, you know, Mauricio is hot. I think the New York ones are more, um, like gray gardens, like wacky. That's true. Actually. You're right. That's what I like about them. That's true. Um, I also watched 90 day fiance. I haven't gotten into that. Oh, it's insane. It's very depressing and dark. But there's so many seasons that happen all at the same time sometimes. You can just always be watching this show. It's insane. It's like the news. Yeah. That's good business. That's smart for TLC. Yeah, and they figured out how to do it. They just call each season a different thing. Where they're like, 90 Day Fiancé is before the 90 days. Or like, what happens now? 90 Days After Dark. They give it a bonus title to differentiate. Yeah, so I'm watching like two of those. Does your boyfriend like doing this stuff as well? He likes 90 Day Fiancé, but sometimes he'll get bored and walk away. He can't watch The Housewives. I get that. That's a special. I mean, I just feel like I was raised on reality television because of just like the real world is very formative to me. So I think, I think that I really feel connected to reality television. I don't actually have that background, but I like it a lot now. I mean, it's also like, I think it's just, it really allows you to shut the mind off, you know?

Speaking of, how is your drug use going? My drug use? I haven't done any drugs. Really? Not even a cheeky little Xan? Oh, wait. I did take Xanax once. That's funny. It's crazy that you guessed the only drug that I've done. Well, that's our favorite drug of choice on this pod. Or one of them, at least. I guess I got lucky. No, I don't. I mean, I don't usually do a lot of drugs, I guess, because I don't smoke weed and I've started to hate cocaine. Really? I mean, it's a bad quarantine drug. Yeah. Well, yeah, it would be bad now, but just in general, I'm not like that into it anymore. Everyone grows out of cocaine. I think that happens because it's just not really sustainable. It's not. It gives me the worst hangovers. Oh, yeah, for sure. But in the mid-2000s, boy, was it something. Yeah. Everybody should do it for a time. I couldn't agree more. That's actually a big thing that we try to push on this podcast. What kind of Coke user were you? Were you a cig smoker? Were you talking about a restaurant or band idea? Did you fight people? Oh, like while I was on it. Yeah, yeah. Definitely like, yeah, like had my best ideas. I love that. That's my favorite kind of person. That's my favorite kind. Really? Yeah. I really can't stand the cocaine users that just get super emotional about friendships. That's any drug, any person that does that on drugs is the worst. I'd rather you be a fighter. And so many of them do. Like a lot of people, that's the first thing that. happens to them when they're on any type of drug including alcohol and it actually makes everything worse like what way worse it bums me out so much and but babe i love you you're yeah you're my best friend right you guys don't realize how important you are to me what do you think what is what makes somebody become that do you think like is it insecurity or i mean who knows yeah but it's a very common thread

Drugs just sort of exacerbate certain qualities about you that you try to keep hidden. Ain't that the truth. But see, when I did coke all the time, when I was as fucked up as I could possibly be, I would actually stop talking. And I'm a very big talker. That was what I would do. Oh, that happens to me too. So that's like when people take Ritalin and it actually makes them chill? Same vibe for you and Coke. Well, I would still feel good like I'm on Coke. You know what I mean? But I just wouldn't feel compelled to blabber the way most people do. Yeah. Well, it depends on how much you do, I guess. If I do a lot, then I don't talk at all. Yeah, maybe I was doing a lot a lot of the time. Now that you mentioned it. It's making a little more sense. Have you guys been doing any extra? Curricular activities? I'm sober, actually. I've heard a lot of people are going sober for quarantine and not expecting to keep that up afterwards, which I find strange. Unfortunately, mine predates quarantine. Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I assumed. So you've heard a lot of people who are choosing to go sober during the quarantine. Yeah, and I thought that was strange. That is strange. I feel like this is the time to like not really care about anything. I think that drinking during the quarantine is, is not a great idea because you're already kind of living a sedentary life. You don't need more calories and there's no real, like, I don't, I want to get, I want to drink Marg's and, and hang out and smoke cigs and talk with my friends and have a funny night and then eat, eat some chips at two in the morning. But I don't want to like get drunk and then watch. more netflix on my couch right there's like no real no real purpose for that well you can do the social thing here is the thing i mean we're not supposed to but everybody's doing it especially i wanted to ask you about that are there underground clubs happening that i'm not oh no no but i mean you've seen like in our neighborhoods like the the i've been displaced i mean i've been in montreal i'm in montreal but i've seen the i've seen the people getting together

Well, yeah, like if you go to Tompkins on a weekend, it's just as full as it ever was. Actually, it seems more full because you're not allowed on the grass now. And the dog parks are closed. So there's just dogs and people in the sidewalk areas. And it's too crowded. That's gross. I mean, I still go. Because now there's all these sidewalk... bars now. Yeah, they're offering to go. And I really like that. I like getting a drink to go and walking around. It feels very European. Yeah. What if New York was really like that? Think how many fights there would be. It'd be really crazy. Well, it seems like it's going to be like that for a while. Yeah, true. It is kind of fun. I mean, I think that's how it used to be. That's how it is here in LA as well. Like if you drive past a, like an Acapulco Mexican restaurant, it's fully closed, but then you can like drive up and buy a margarita and, you know, drive home with it, which seems very wrong. That seems wrong because why wouldn't you just make a margarita at home? Yes. No, because you have to take your Tesla out to make sure the battery is still charged. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not just for the drink. It's a double meaning. Yeah. But I would say the marijuana use has increased, and I think that's probably good. And also mushrooms has sort of increased. Oh. Just to sort of break up the monotony of every day, you know? That sounds nice. I know a lot of people were having trouble being sober because it's, like, so depressing and there's nothing to do. So it's like – It's kind of a way to break up the day for me. Like I have a time when I decide that I can start drinking. Smart. What time is that? Like 7 or 8. That's good. I mean I'm going to bed at like closer to 8. Oh, really? I mean I wake up – I just wake up really early now. Like I wake up at 6 probably and then start going – Probably go to bed around 10 actually.

I think if I didn't still have a job, because I'm still working, I would not handle this as well. But I wake up at 9 and then work for about 8 hours. And then I make dinner and have a drink and then watch a movie. So that's a very normal life. Normal-ish. Yeah, it's pretty normal except for the just once in a while. little breakdowns. It's like, I wish I could do something different. Yeah, it's totally the same. And I don't even know what it is. Except for the world's burning, but otherwise it's totally normal. Yeah, it's frustrating because you can think all day long, like, what is that thing that will, you know, scratch that itch? And there just really isn't anything. Because even if you do that thing, you'll feel guilty for it because it's probably breaking some law. I know. Well, yeah. Do you have a chic mask? No, I just have the regular surgical masks. Do you think that COVID is a government creation and it doesn't exist? I'm getting closer to those types of phones. So are you using a 5G phone right now or are you kind of like against 5G? What's your stance? I think I have a 5G phone. How do you tell? I don't know. I don't believe in that. You'll know, sweetie. You'll know. You'll know. Trust me. When you take that tinfoil hat off, you'll know. Yeah. Yeah, I think every single – I think in the last month, like I guess in all of May, all 10 days of it, every day exponentially it seems like people are really giving a fuck less and less. I think by the end of the month it's going to be a very different world that we're living in. Giving a fuck about protecting. Obeying the rules. Yeah, I think people are just completely getting unhinged. I think it's like how much no one can take anymore and the answers don't seem to be concrete or real enough. Right. Well, and it's like this very particular thing where the things that we're doing in order to protect ourselves and each other are things that we were already doing before.

And now it's just sped up that we're like going in this like future direction of like, everybody lives in a pod and they don't work and all products are delivered and robots, you know, roam the street. You know what this is? Fucking Bezos is what the fuck it is. This is all. I think Bezos launches into the world, Jason. I think a little too coincidental. Did Bezos do 9-11? Do we know for sure? Are we sure he didn't do it? He had a hand. When the vaccination comes around and you have the choice, will you refuse it? That's a good question. I don't know. Thank you. I'll definitely get vaccinated. Give me the fucking shot. Chris loves to get vaccinated. He won't even read the terms of agreement. No, definitely not. Shoot me up, man. I just don't want to ever hear about this shit again. So whatever I can do to get it out of my life, I'm down. Even if a Bill Gates microchip is in your body, you won't care? Bro, look. All this shit, take all my information. I don't give a fuck. What do you want from me? You can track me all you want. Chris keeps his nose clean. He doesn't look at weird porn. He doesn't do drugs. He doesn't break the law. You can find me in my apartment at Equinox or at Whole Foods. If you want to find me, you know where to find me. Come see me. Come see me. It's not that hard. I don't know why people are so paranoid. I think I'm paranoid because the thought process is like, yeah, I'm not doing anything wrong until everyone is being surveyed. And then it's like, what? What counts is wrong. The rules change. Right now, the rules have changed. We're not allowed to be within six feet of each other and nobody expected that to be one of the rules. That's true. It could change into another rule that is totally unexpected later on. Damn. You're putting me in a bad mood. I'm sorry. I'm just kidding. This is what I've been thinking about.

Well, it's like I've been thinking about just how much civilization can take maybe. And it's like surprisingly a lot. Yeah, it is. It's been cool to see. But, you know, there has to be an end point to it. And I feel like it's coming pretty soon. What do you think it's going to look like? I mean, I don't know. It's kind of. I hope that the worst doesn't happen where there's just looting and violence and people just start living only for themselves and hoarding food and ammunition and just hoping that people don't rob you and stuff like that. Just to feed their families and stuff. Well, most movies have predicted that that is the outcome. I know. I've never watched movies before. Yeah, you know. Hopefully that obviously never happens because I don't have a gun and I'm not great at fighting. Yeah, same. Well, speak for yourselves, guys. I have two fucking AKs and I'm really good with my hands. So I'm going to be fine and I'll have all the milk and other non-perishables. I think maybe we'll move into some type of bartering. No, Jason, no, we won't. It's not going to go that far. Well, you're just saying that because you have nothing to barter. What are you talking about? What are you going to do? You can't barter what a shoe company should do with their Instagram page. That's going to be gone. The people who are like, I can make you shoes. Then they're going to be like, yes, great, I need shoes. Yeah. Damn. Or over here making this focaccia. That can get me pretty far. That can. Focaccia can go pretty far. Yeah, like people who are going to rule the world are like, oh, I can give you Wi-Fi or I can fix your iPhone. Those were like the lowly jobs before and then in the future that will be very sought after work. Shit. You guys are spinning me out. You're fucked, Chris. I'm fucked. I have no skills. I'm barely... I mean, I can't do anything. I know.

Me neither. Well, luckily, we have the one skill that the world will always need. Podcasting. Exactly. Wow. And on that note, wow. Natasha, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. This was fun. No, you were great. And I love your podcast. I've been listening to it. It's great. Thank you. We appreciate it. We'll put that blurb on our digital dust jacket. Thank you. Where can people find you on the internet? Like on my Instagram or my Twitter? Yeah, we need you to tell us what that is. We want you to do some plugs. You're plugging now. My name is spelled out. Natasha Stagg. Okay. And your books are available wherever books are sold. True. I love that. So everybody go cop a book. I've been using bookshop.org to support local bookstores, which I find really helpful. It's really a cool service. Are you available on audio? No. Something to consider as a revenue stream for Q3, my friend. Yeah. Good. Q3. Thank you, Tassa. I have a feeling you're not going to do it. No, me neither. You're definitely not doing it. Yeah, great. Maybe. We'll just hire somebody else to read it. Yeah. Okay. I'm available to talk to my agent. Thank you. Thank you. For coming, and we will talk to you soon. Okay. Bye. Bye.