040. - Joe Coscarelli

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Good afternoon, Chris. What's good, TJ? Hey, I'm in the lake house in Lake Arrowhead right now. Arrowhead, TJ, hits different. We had to pop in for just a weekend getaway. I don't understand why you guys don't stay there longer. Is it just too boring? Well, kind of, yeah. Kind of, no. I don't know. I get it. When you're in a place of nature and solitude and zen quietness, sometimes you need a couple of days and you're like, okay, it's out of my system. I'm good. Yeah. I mean, look, I hate nature, but I was just asking. I know. You're the type of person where you can go to a beautiful campsite and then walk around for an afternoon and be like, all right, I'm all set. We're straight. Where's the hotel, baby? No more necessito. But yeah, I mean, I feel a little weird having a little summer retreat amidst of what's going on, but our house is under construction. Oh yeah, shit, I already forgot about that. So we have no kitchen, we have no bathroom. It's just kind of, it's real tough. When is that going to be? When is it going to be like, what's the TL looking like? Probably like one more week. Oh, okay, that's not that bad. But, you know, I've been eating every meal all week from a restaurant where I was cooking every single thing I ate for the last three months at home. So it was a real flip-flop. Yeah, restaurants are much cooler, aren't they? No, no, no, they're not. Unless they're a small local business that needs your support. Oh, here we go. Bitch, we know you were ordering fucking Postmates from McDonald's. No, no, no. One thing that I've done during the quarantine is... no delivery i'll always do a pickup an order directly from the restaurant's website don't use a third party because they always they always take a cut and that money goes to you know a twisted corporation and not your friend's restaurant they take a big old cut too i mean some of that shit's crazy they do in some restaurants um even even they they use those sites without even getting profit

And they still have to raise their prices on Postmates just to offset all the fees and stuff they charge. So the same thing on there. If you walk in, it'll cost $10. It costs $13 or whatever on DoorDash. Yeah. Well, I was talking to my friend yesterday here in Atlanta. And his brother owns a restaurant here that's like a pretty high-end sushi place. And they had never done takeout before. And after a while in the quarantine, they were like, fuck it, let's try it. And they made this like custom packaging and like really went for it. And apparently they're, they're fucking killing. They did the, um, the sugar fish bento probably. Yeah. I would imagine something similar, but like, I guess I just never think to spend $200 on real sushi when it comes to like takeout. That just doesn't really, well, yeah, it's ass backwards to me. But apparently, it's really working here in Buckhead. That's good. I mean, people want to support. And if you're a restaurant that has nothing available, you're shooting yourself in the foot. I went to – I hit Lenox Square yesterday, baby. So nature really is healing. Nature is not healing, actually. Can you explain Lenox to our listeners who might not be familiar with it? Well, I mean, if you've ever listened to rap music in your life, you know Linux Square. It's the most famous mall. One of the more famous malls, I would say, in the world. But it's a... Let's not go that far. Look, it's no South Coast Plaza, but it's a known gathering place. It's a known gathering place on Peachtree Street in Buckhead. And I had to... I ordered some new running shoes because my... current ones are toasted i had to go exchange them at the nike store um so i i had to go to the mall which was i mean is this the first time that you've like purchased clothing retail item in person in a while uh yeah actually yeah i didn't even get to purchase i just exchanged it was pretty lackluster but yeah i mean the mall was

obviously insane like packed and my my my friend for shod my like first boss um who owns a store there said that he's probably gonna have his best month ever in the history of his business during quarantine like the month post quarantine because people are just out here spending i don't know what why they're spending like they is it because now they finally have an opportunity to show off their outfits I think in the beginning, to quote Farshad, they had the STEMI checks. Got it, got it, got it. But the STEMI check, I mean, it's not that much money. So I think it's gone beyond that. It's not that much money. But if you are the type of person who did not necessarily need the STEMI check and then it just becomes free monopoly money instantly, then you're going to buy some... some some johns as they would say yeah so he i mean it was just interesting to talk to him and and be like he's like yeah it's absolutely fucking insane and then last night he texted me because i'd seen him yesterday he texted me being like they basically evacuated them all um last night before before it was closing time because of this because of this richard brooks killing yeah um so uh grand opening grand closing grand opening grand closing is is right um so i i didn't realize i i didn't um i mean obviously i i'd heard you know something was probably going to happen um but the protesters shut down 75 which is like to shut down a highway in atlanta is pretty fucking insane um this is a they That usually only happens when it rains. So this is big. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. When you get a half an inch of snow, it closes down. But the, the, you know, I mean, it's like a main, it's, it's the main, one of the main veins. It's a crazy, crazy thing. And even, even though it was like a Saturday night, which is obviously not the highest traffic moment, it's still pretty insane to, to do that. So, and they lit the motherfucking Wendy's on fire, which,

apparently was done by a white lady um but i i don't i don't have confirmation on that but i mean i think that the whole the the i mean again this is just obviously what we've been talking about but i mean video of him running away it's like and i think the the thing i have and this is what they kind of tried to do with with george floyd as well as a little bit like well he's a criminal you know what i mean i'm like guys we're talking about falling asleep tipsy in a car you know what i mean we're not talking about like real crime Yeah, this was a crime that in the 60s would be a commendable act of like, oh, he had too much to drink. He's going to pull over and sleep it off. That's a great responsible thing to do. Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that the – If you're white. Yeah, if you're white. And I think this goes down to another interesting thing about like that is the perfect example of a situation where the cops shouldn't be called. you know like that that's not a police issue like you know what i mean like that there that that is i think a perfect example of something that that that illustrates that and how it could have been handled differently um yeah a full complete lack of humanity going on there but watching i mean there's the video is him literally running away and shooting him in the back which is just for that to happen right now is absolutely fucking insane and that's like he got fired the day after right or he's already he got no he got fired uh the chief of police resigned um but there's there's bigger implications too because the mayor who is keisha lance bottoms has been you know they're floating her name to be biden's vice president so atlanta and i want to talk to our so our guest today is joe coscarelli um from the new york times um who's one of my favorite music writers, and he does Diary of a Song, the very popular series, where he kind of gets every person involved in writing a hit song to kind of break down how it happened, which is one of my favorite series online. But Joe is also, for the last probably year... A piece of content that is no longer necessary anymore, unfortunately. What do you mean? That was more of a joke.

But that's something that I want to get into with him of like, you know, a lot of content is either going to have to pivot greatly or, you know, its existence is not necessary right now type of thing. But he's been over the last year working on a book that is all based in Atlanta. So him and I have hung out here together. So he has a pretty distinct understanding of the city. as like an outsider. And also I think just the voter suppression, like Atlanta is just a really important place right now beyond giving the world the greatest rap music in history. It's also a hotly contested political arena right now, which I think is interesting and just obviously. anything in the South, especially in a major city like this is, is incredibly racially charged. Um, so fans of Atlanta, this is your episode. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just thought it was interesting that we had Joe's schedule and you know, this happened. It's just, it's interesting. Cause I, I do think that someone that's been kind of in the trenches and like spending, you know, embedding himself with someone like little baby. has a very distinct view of the city that I don't have as a person who's born and raised here. It's just two different things. But anyway, it's just a lot going on right now, obviously, and continues to go on. And you are also in ATL right now as we speak, more or less. I'm in the A. Yeah, I'm in Decatur where it's greater as we speak. How far of a drive is that? To Atlanta? Sorry. It's its own city, but it's 15 minutes maybe. It's like saying Silver Lake is in Los Angeles. Yeah, basically. I've been here since Thursday, which has been pretty nice, actually. Being stationary feels good after [redacted address]. I found a weird gym that was pre-set up for social distancing.

And it's really changed the course of my day. What is the most glaring, crazy part about the social distancing setup? No, that's the thing. So it's called Atlanta Barbell. And it's basically only, it's a giant warehouse with garage doors. And it has squat racks and benches that are basically six feet apart. And it has 18 of them in rows. So you have your own. So you have your own area. So it's like getting a cabana at the club. Exactly. It's literally getting a section. But you have your own. So it's incredible. It's really built for this. And it's like the kind of situation where you basically just pay for a week or whatever. And then you get a barcode on your phone. You scan in. It's really made me very happy. So this is like you and your friends getting a racquetball court for a few hours. So you can all pump together. exactly that's literally right i mean the people in there are definitely freaks uh but i mean today there's a guy in there that pulled up that had straight edge tattoos and uh a red tesla and an x swatch on and i'm like this is not the kind of person i ever want to interact with as long as i live and you didn't know him exactly that's the other thing i'm like i went to your hood and they didn't know you bro so you know you're getting old Where were you? I didn't see you. You weren't under the couch in 2001. I know you weren't. Anyway, I've been in Atlanta and I will be here for the foreseeable, not foreseeable future, but for a while. For a minute? Yeah, for a couple weeks. And your parents are still out of town? No, my parents are here. They're leaving on Thursday. So Big CB's got the house to himself, baby. Wow, it's Home Alone 3. risky business in this bitch um well what can one person do the least amount of of trouble yeah i literally literally i'm gonna watch tv in a different room it's gonna be crazy uh but that's he might have a soda yeah i might i could have a ginger ale once once a week maybe settle the tummy um all right let me let me give joe a call yes please all right later this episode of how long gone is brought to you by squarespace

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That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Yo, what up? How's it going? Man, it's going. How are you, King? I'm all right. Are we doing this on audio or video? We do it on audio. Although your video feed is very New York right now. It really is. So it's hitting for both of us. Neither of you are in New York. No, Jason lives in Los Angeles, but he's currently in Lake Arrowhead, and I am in Atlanta. Right. Have you stayed in New York the whole time? The state, but not the city. Where did you go upstate? Yeah, we spent two months in Rhinebeck with... another couple um our friends allison leon um in a in a house up there so that was a strange sleepaway camp experience two months is a long time with a whole other family yeah and dogs two dogs also two months in reinbeck has a nice like a24 film title ring yeah it does yes it does it really does i uh Was it cute and quaint, or did you want to get out of there after two weeks? It was cute and quaint for the most part. Alice and I both were working on books, so it was good to have another person there to keep in check and compare word count with at the end of the day. I love that. That's the new dick measuring contest. We're doing a word count. Who did the most today? We tried to do 1500 word days and then would just sort of like be on the other if we just spent it procrastinating. twiddling with two sentences over and over again. I love that that's what you and your friends do while me and my friends are literally talking about weightlifting and running. I'm glad to see that some of us are doing mental gymnastics while others are only physical. Yeah, well, Carrie, my girlfriend, she did the exercising and the knitting.

for the house while we were writing. We had one podcaster. We covered all the bases. This is a Portlandia sketch at this point. Walk me through the natural wine selection going on in this household. It was actually a lot of Bud Light, I would say. Wow, that's cooler than I expected. That's a curveball, I will be honest. Yeah, we're a cheap beer family. But you're back now in New York. Yeah, so I was on four months of book leave, which weirdly, really neatly lined up with the entire world being shut down. So I was gone February 1st to June 1st from the Times, and we were in Rhinebeck from the end of March, I guess, until June 1st, when I started back on my day job. I think you're the first person I've talked to who's been on book leave. Ever? Ever, maybe. I just don't really hear about it that much. Hey, Joe, he lives in LA. People are smart there. They don't make books there. In LA, we have to... make the book and we have to do our job as well. We don't just get the paid time off. Let me rewind. They don't make books with words there. The photos are bomb though, dude. You have to give me that. There are a lot of books with glossy pages, but not a lot of them with just black and white. Our board meetings are a little different over here. Do you feel like you wasted your, your, your book leave? Cause the world ended and you could have just done it anyway. That's like, I mean, I don't actually, I think it weirdly worked out perfectly because there were no distractions. So like everyone was trapped in the house, but I was trapped in the house, like with a task. And I think there was literally nothing else I could have been doing. So to have sat around and done nothing and wasted, that would have been a kill shot. Have you heard of social media? Because that's ruined our lives. But that was the other thing. I ended up having to be very diligent. I deleted Instagram, deleted...

Twitter from my phone, and I actually just tweeted about this, but I got my screen time under an hour average per day. I didn't know we had Marie Kondo on the pod today. Yeah, I broke a world record of 10 hours last week. I mean, that's amazing. I was way more proud of my screen time than of the actual words I was writing, but they are directly correlated. Sometimes on a Sunday or whatever, I would put Twitter and Instagram back on my phone and spend two hours maybe just numbing my brain on social media. Then I would have a crick in my neck or my shoulders would ache. At night, I would be like, why do I feel worse? I was like, oh, it's because I'm back to scrolling and letting the world make me angry. basically damn when the doom the doom scroll affects you physically and mentally who knew you may have fucked around and inspired me to delete off the phone i gotta say like just try like just try it well now that now that instagram is available on desktop no problem i think i will try it Yeah, I mean, you know, I would do like a morning check and a night check sometimes like before or after I started writing on, you know, on the web, but it's not as fun. Like you don't get the mindless feeling of the thumb scroll, you know, it's like, I don't know, but like, yes. And now that I'm back at like six hours a day on my phone or whatever, like. Everything hurts. I can't get anything done. Everything hurts in my soul, in my neck, in my back. You guys can play your little games. I'm trying to get up to 11 hours. That's cute. It sounds like you need to try some CBD, bro. I say this a lot, but CBD sounds really good for your situation right now. Chris, do you look at number of pickups? You know, like, the phone also counts, like, how many times you pick it up. Oh, shit. No, no, no. I don't want to know that. That's a thing. I did not know that. Yeah, if you go deep in the, you know, when it gives you the screen time stats. Yeah, if you go deep in that, you can see, like, it tells you, you know, what percentage you're spending on what apps and also, like, how many phone pickups you have. And you can use that to see if Bay is checking on you when you're in the shower, too.

Right. You're like, wait, that doesn't seem like my pickup. I had 47 before I showered. That's all I'm saying. I did not know that that the problem is, is that I don't want the data, but they're giving us so much. I just don't want it. Like, I don't want it. I don't think people I don't think anybody really wants it. I want it. I need it to keep me in check. But you see, Chris, this is what I don't understand, because you're such a man of curbing appetites. In other fields, but not social media every day is a cheat day for you. Every day is a cheat day. Well, this is all I have, bro. I mean, that's the thing. It's like between exercise and social media, I would say those are my only two outlets. It's more of a coping day than a cheat day. Yeah, but I also consider, and this might be delusional of me, but I consider Twitter to be kind of part of my job. You know what I mean? I mean, I do too, which is why I was only able to do it when I wasn't doing my job. Yeah. So I think I've, I think I've compartmentalized that Instagram to me is more just like, I can't help myself, you know? Yeah. Who can like, I mean, I don't think anybody can. And it's not like, especially right now, the content is not good. Like as far as like, it's, it's information that I can get somewhere else in a better format and like a more in depth way. But a lot of people hate Twitter and don't use it. So we get all of the actual information from Twitter and then it's regurgitated and reposted on Instagram for those who don't. So I guess that's beneficial. Yeah, that's true. I discovered this crazy thing while I was mostly off social media, which is a newspaper. You can just read the newspaper in the morning. No, newspapers are out, dog. Newspapers are out. Don't most people get their news from Twitter nowadays? Yes, definitely. The side door to content. I'm interested to know now with all these paywalls if the Twitter news source is helping as much. I think a lot of the stuff...

You see it and you're interested and you click and you can't read it unless you pay for a handful of things that really matter. Because I think with at least coronavirus, a lot of people took the paywall off. I don't think with undoing racism, I don't think they've come around to letting that content fly. Which is interesting, actually, because I feel like it's even more interesting than coronavirus. and and as yeah as important i mean for sure but that's something i want to talk to you about too joe because of of i and i said this on the introduction but you know you have a very interesting connection to atlanta which is uh a a big thing happening right now a big a big story um obviously they killed richard books um the voter suppression um it's just the police chief quit there's all this shit going on in atlanta yeah um bottoms up for vp exactly and i'm from i'm from here and i'm white as hell so i know what i my understanding of it is one thing but i think it'd be helpful if you could explain what your book is about and what you've been working on and why you've spent so much time here yes so my parents moved to atlanta when i was a teenager um when I graduated high school, they moved, uh, to the suburbs, like north of the city. Uh, my sister went to high school there. Uh, and so I started spending time there, you know, as, as an older teenager, I was, you know, coming home from college and stuff. And I have other family that lives there as well. Uh, and you know, I had always been, I grew up in Florida, so I grew up in the, in the South, but like so far South that it's not even really the South anymore. Uh, you know, like, Orlando, Florida, not exactly a bastion of any kind of culture, even Southern culture. So Atlanta was always, like, you know, the capital of anything in my youth, especially because, you know, I'm born in the late 80s. Like, I grew up on rap music. I grew up on Southern rap music, specifically. New Orleans, Atlanta, basically. You know, when I, like, go...

I've gotten to, like, speak at colleges in Atlanta, and they're like, what do you, like, how'd you get into rap music, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I knew who Juvenile was before I knew who Biggie was, like, literally, you know? Like, that's just... That's wild. That's just, like, what growing up in Florida was at that time. So, you know, I had this job at The Times for about five years now. I cover the music industry, specifically, you know, youth culture, popular music. So... I found myself in Atlanta a lot for work. And so, you know, starting about three years ago, I was just reporting very heavily in Atlanta and I got the opportunity. based on a few stories that I'd written to try to turn that into a larger nonfiction project. The editor who did Gucci Man's autobiography reached out to me and was sort of like, would you want to do a wider portrait of music in the city, specifically rap music? So I basically have spent the last two, three years traveling down there every chance I get, living there for stretches with some family. and following sort of young artists who are trying to make it in rap today. So I've just spent, you know, countless hours in studios, just riding around in cars, just like, you know, music video shoots, interviewing everyone from, you know, Migos and sort of the big names in the city, you know, spent some time at Stankonia and, you know. street execs and all the studios, but then also with kids sort of like a rung or two below that who are using the blueprint of that city to try to make art and try to make their life art, you know? So, and then, you know, I've also spent time in the clubs, obviously, the strip clubs, talking to DJs, managers, just like trying to paint the full picture of a music scene, you know? Because I feel like a lot of people, think of Atlanta as this rap capital but they don't think of it as a music scene and it is a music scene it's like everybody knows each other everybody grew up together one artist puts another artist on and it's like it's this it's just this very distinct family tree and you can trace from you know LaFace and OutKast through everything that's happening today even if you don't hear it in the songs automatically but it's like

there is like a one-to-one connection. Everybody came from somebody else directly. And so I've just, you know, I've been sort of immersed in that world, spending a lot of time with people born and raised there and just trying to, you know, collect as much information as I can and sort of tell these stories that I feel like don't get told beyond the surface level. And in spending that time here, And I think this is something that people say but don't maybe understand if they've never been here. Atlanta is both like a southern city, which in most people's minds means like white racist, and it's also black Hollywood, for lack of a better term. And in all your work here and all your time here, I imagine you find those things to be very separate. Very separate. It is an extremely segregated city still. This is what I always try to explain to people. It's like the blackest city in the whitest state. It's like a blue city in a red state. It's just this collision of so many things. It's both extremely diverse and extremely segregated. That's on both racial lines and class lines. You know what I mean? black mecca, as it's called, because of generations of historically black colleges and universities and Fortune 500 companies and black political leadership dating back to the 60s and 70s. And then you still have this sort of black underclass that's been pushed to the margins by a lot of the things that made Atlanta what it is. You think of something like the Olympics. You think of them tearing down all the public housing. And you sort of, you know, you have this disenfranchised class of people even within a city where black people are thriving. And they're the ones making some of the most urgent art and music. You know, these people who have sort of been forgotten even by a city that is famous for sort of nurturing its black roots and black talent and black leadership.

Yeah, I think that – like I said, I think that's something people just don't really understand or realize, which in some ways makes sense because obviously the stuff that gets glamorized is not that. No one wants to talk about that. That's not interesting. But southern cities in general, a lot of them have that vibe. I think here it's pronounced because there is money. You know, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's different, but I don't, I mean, when you've been, cause you've spent time with a lot of these guys and in these studios and in these neighborhoods and these clubs, and it, it does feel like they operate, they kind of operate out in their own worlds. Like they have a full ecosystem. that they're operating in and fun and, and not funneling money into, but, but like spending with each other almost. Right. You know what I mean? And I think, you know, I, I had a conversation with Jermaine Dupree about this. Uh, you know, obviously he was born and raised there. His father was in the music industry and he basically said like, we are what we are here in Atlanta and in music because. like no white people could ever tell me anything you know he was like he was like I didn't grow up around white people trying to keep me down because I was only surrounded by black people basically you know and you can do that there uh and it's and yet then you see these clashes you know in a neighborhood like Buckhead or something which you know has gone through these phases where it was the sort of old boy you know uh Dixie, you know, sort of loafers and khakis area. Hey, look, my culture is not your costume. Yeah, no shots. But then, you know, you have periods in the late 90s or even in the early 2000s when it became like a hub of black nightlife, you know, and then... And then you see the white fight happen. You see overly aggressive policing. And the clubs used to be open until 4 a.m. in the toniest, whitest suburbs. And then something like Ray Lewis happens. Something like some of the BMF stuff, the big Meech stuff happens. And then they just completely wipe that out. And again, push the thriving black middle and lower class back out.

to the suburbs and to, you know, areas where they're resegregated. There's no, and in my mind, or at least from what I can tell, the only reason for that is just systemic racism. I mean, there's no, there's no other real way to pin that on. Like one shooting involving a football player should not decimate an entire, right. industry that is thriving and make that i mean i was here for that there was a lot of money being made and it was it was um it was a thing you know what i mean it was like it was like a time and like there was a lot of places making a lot of money um and nightclubs have their own problems white or black obviously with drugs and crime being around them um but i i don't see any other reason for that in a city that like you said has black leader historically has black leadership Yeah. I mean, there's been a, you know, there, there's a lot of great writing on this, obviously from people who, who know the city way better than I do. People who have grown up there, you know, sort of, uh, black academics. There's this book, uh, legend of the black Mecca, um, by this guy, Maurice Hobson would have found like extremely, uh, instructive in thinking about these things and, you know, how class operates, uh, in a place, in a place like this. And, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's so entrenched even still, even though you have a black mayor, you know, you still see, you know, you've had black mayors going all the way back, you know, to Maynard Jackson. Like, it's just, I mean, it's, that doesn't mean that everybody is being cared for, you know? No, for sure. I mean, no, absolutely not. I mean, do you think that this stuff, Well, I mean, you know what happened this weekend doesn't surprise me for many reasons. You know what I mean? Because that's obviously happening everywhere. I think the – and Jason and I talked about this a little bit. But the just kind of like – the fact that that happened right now should shock me more. Like you know that you're in a historically like black city and you know that all eyes are on the police.

To me, it shouldn't shock me, but it does in some ways. I'm having a hard time reckoning the whole thing, really. I've eaten at that Wendy's. I went there a few months ago after a really long day of reporting in South Carolina. It was probably like... 1030 or something and i just like needed a bathroom and a frosty uh and you know i like sat there and ate by myself like right just right where you now see you know the embers basically of this wendy's um and you know i'm curious to see sort of how the arts leadership in the black community sort of changes their tone because of this. You know, like if you think back to when these protests first started and you had Taylor Mike and TI sort of appearing alongside, you know, Mayor Bottom, then, you know, urging people not to, you know, not to loot and not to turn to violence. And that was sort of successful. I've seen a lot of blowback about that. Yeah, I mean, there was definitely, there was definitely blowback. But I mean, even if you think of someone like Lil Baby, who, you know, grew up in Southwest Atlanta, you know, not far from where all this happened. And he put out that song on Friday called The Bigger Picture. And he's sort of, you know, I mean, there's nobody more important in Atlanta music than Lil Baby right now. Like, I'm sure you hear it on the streets. Like, it's just the only, it's just. He's just the king of everything. And it's been that way, you know, the last probably year and a half. But that song was really, I found it to be very moving because it was ambivalent in places and like a bit conciliatory. Like, you know, he was, he's obviously speaking strongly against the law enforcement that he's had personal experience with, but also saying like, not everyone is bad. Like we have to, you know, come together and raise our city up.

Then, you know, days later, hours later, you get a black man shot in the back. And I just wonder sort of how now his tone maybe switches, you know, and these rappers, you know, they're community leaders in addition to being musicians. And I think that's why people were upset or at least vocal about the Killer Mike and T.I. shit is they're basically like, look, these guys are talking about. Looting. We don't really give a fuck about that. Killer Mike big up in cops and his family and shit. It's like, I don't want to hear this. That's not what we need right now. It's really complicated. You saw T.I. was out there yesterday, I think, after protests and stuff. But he is so far from where he started. He's a business owner. He is extremely wealthy, and he's been that way for many years. You see this push and pull. of people who both want his leadership and people who are like, this isn't about you, you know? Uh, and I sort of, I think I wonder how guys like that will respond to like what Chappelle said in his special, you know, which was sort of like, you guys are driving. Like, I know this is not about, this is not about me. You know, this is about like a younger generation sort of taking to the streets and doing what needs to be done. And I'm going to like sit back. I'm, I'm a known Chappelle. Like I'm not, I just find, I thought all that stuff in the last couple of years was pretty lackluster. That shit was, that was about as good as he could be, I thought. I mean, you know, he's a master communicator and like sometimes he only has to say like one word or make one face and he can, you know, impart more wisdom in that than most people can do in an hour and a half. So obviously he's just like the, you know, the most. vital voice i feel like uh at a time like this so it was nice for him to like pop his head up and do that i thought but i do i do think that's interesting what you said about little baby though as far as like someone of of that generation making

maybe even something non-musical you you know what i mean like actually like making a statement statement or doing not maybe a press conference is the wrong thing but something a little more like nah fuck this like i'm gonna say it very directly with no beat like i'm gonna say it to you so it's very clear where i stand and it cannot be confused i mean i think seeing him you know like in the protests on a bike like in a black lives matter shirt like that was that was meaningful and i think like he's he's just like coming into being comfortable with that sort of stuff and uh you know I think in the coming days, weeks, years, you're going to see guys like that. Even someone like 21 Savage who grew up there and has turned his whole thing to being about financial literacy and school drives and putting guns down. I think there's a next generation of leadership that's ready to step up. I don't think people understand how important that actually is because I think that that's part of... The reason that rap music especially has always been so, you know, like white people fighting it almost in ways is because they think it's about something. They have this idea that's only about these few things that they see as negatives. Right. And obviously anybody who listens to it understands that's not true. And it's a bigger thing than that. It's much deeper. But I do think that in a time like this. it would be important for these young guys to kind of make statements and really step up. Because I do think that there's a lot of people that are like, I don't give a fuck what T.I. and Killer Mike have to say. Those guys, they feel old to me. They don't feel relevant to me. Right. And as somebody who covers celebrities for a living, I'm not one to usually say, I don't really care what famous people have to say about current events most of the time. But it's different in Atlanta rap because these guys are so of their communities. They're born and raised there. They stay there. They invest in businesses there. You know what I mean? They are civic leaders in a way that I think a lot of people can't understand. And it's different than like...

Gal Gadot singing Imagine on her. But you're right. That's something interesting to talk about, too. I think if you're an actor or even a musician in a rock band, you move to New York or L.A. That's what you do. You might have a house in L.A., but you stay in Atlanta. It's important to stay in Atlanta. It's almost understood that's what's going to happen. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's, it's a city worth investing in. So I think it's, you know, it's important that, that these guys stick around and sort of raise up generations under them. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. Lots to think about here. Yeah. Yeah. It's intense. I mean, I, I, I want to be there. You know what I mean? Like I'm jealous of you right now. Just to sort of, cause you can, like you said, you can sort of drive in neighborhoods where. it seems like nothing's happening. And then you take a few exits and you're in like a totally different world. And I think people don't appreciate that about a city. Like it's, it's, it's not like New York because it's so spread out. Yeah, no, it's very different. I mean, I went to, I went to Linux yesterday, bro. And it was like, and it's just like a full motion picture. This shit is packed. Like it's a regular Saturday, but the Corona thing is interesting because here it seems like the, at the mall it was the black community and trumpers that too was at the mall and and like half of them are wearing masks half of them aren't and then you know as soon as the sun goes down they evacuate the mall and because they're scared of a riot it's just such a it's such a like the mall is fully open everybody's buying shit and then two hours later it's a police state I mean, it's a perfect microcosm of America in that sense. You know what I mean? There's not a more representative city because you have both of those things happening at once simultaneously at all times. Yeah, no, that's true. You're right. You're absolutely right. Well, where are you with the book? You know, I have a lot of work to do. How has what has been going on the last couple of months going to change your book or will it?

I don't know. I don't know. That's a great question. I mean, I turned in a huge chunk at the end of my leave. And, you know, I'm sort of waiting to hear back on that while continuing to work through parts, you know, that I haven't done. The last time I was there was late February. So right before Corona hit. And I was sort of thinking about that being like a bit of a clean ending because it, you know. everything changed basically after February, 2020. But now, you know, now I have to rethink that because of everything going on. No, I think this is going to be a really difficult time for people that were in the middle of stuff, especially something like this, where it like, obviously Corona, but, but more, more accurately, these murders have, it can't be ignored in a book like this. Yeah, definitely. Unless you write a second book. There you go. Go ahead and sell them in. Just like the Bible. You have the BC and the AD. You can do that for this as well. I hope to never write a book again. I hope to spend the next year or whatever it takes finishing this one and then maybe find a new line of work. Are you feeling a little spread thin, Jeff? I'm just... Maybe you got a little too used to being a content creator. I've just, you know, I've been making content for a decade now, and it's tough. And, you know, I've also, like, I've sort of switched in the last year or two to making a lot of, like, video and stuff, and that's, like, a whole other game. And I just don't know. Yeah, I just don't know. Well, maybe how do you think, now that you've been separated from content creating for a few months on your book leave, you know, how are you going to come back and have the content that you create? be different or will it be different i mean it's really hard to figure out as somebody asking that as a personal question yeah i don't know and i don't think anybody knows and it's really interesting to see everybody kind of dip their toe in the in the pool and see what works and not really committing to anything etc etc

Yeah, I mean, as somebody who covers culture and entertainment and celebrities, it's really hard to feel like anything I can do right now matters. I'm sort of like, I'm using this time as a white person from a place of privilege at an elite institution to sort of just shut up a little bit and take a step back. And I don't think it matters. I don't think the Lady Gaga album matters. It's just impossible to think that. People get healing entertainment and escapism from the content that you make. And also people who are fighting as a part of the revolution and the changing world. So you can just alter whatever content you're making. Yeah, I mean, distraction and counter-programming and stuff right now, it's just not the time for it. I don't want to give people a break. I want people to focus. No, that's fair. how this stuff is going to affect the music industry in the long run and, you know, continue to sort of try to elevate voices and stories that I feel like are not often covered by a place like the New York Times. But it's also just about giving people who are doing the real work, like space to do that, you know? Yeah. I was more talking about like maybe a younger generation than us who sort of rely on, you know, video content as a source of, you know, recharging in meditation or escape from their anxieties or whatever, which would allow them to maybe be a better person on the, on the front lines of a movement perhaps. Yeah. I mean, you know, you see the way that sort of young reporters are. covering this stuff for young civilians who aren't even reporters who maybe don't even think of what they're doing as reporting. Cell phone video, Instagram content, the calls to action we have seen across these social media platforms, the creative uses of TikTok and whatever to string together footage of police brutality. All of that shit is inspiring.

So we can't expect 8,000 words about Lady Antebellum's name change from you then? I mean, you know. Keep Lady A name out your mouth, Chris. I'm just, I'm a little bit, you know, these sort of cosmetic changes that some of these, you know, famous people or corporations or whatever are doing. Like, it's just, it's hard not to be cynical about that stuff. So, you know. I wrote about Lady Antebellum briefly, but we can move on. That's behind the paywall. I don't think they have... I don't think they have much to say right now. They definitely, they don't. And more importantly, no one really cares what they have to say. No one cares. It's just like, you know, if you really went a decade and a half not realizing that Lady Antebellum was a sus name, then like, I don't know what to tell you. Well, I think that actually though, music related, but I think country music might actually be the thing that will be affected most besides hip hop genre wise. Because it is so racist? Well, unless they choose to ignore it, but I feel like it's grown enough and it's so popular now and there is a generation of people who aren't like yellow truck Confederate flag types. I'm sure the establishment doesn't want to see this happen, but I feel like it is ripe for it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you guys saw this, but basically in Nashville, there's been a spreadsheet, like a Google spreadsheet going around. That's just basically a list of every single major country music musician. And it's sort of cataloging whether or not they've said Black Lives Matter or addressed George Floyd or, you know, sort of all this stuff. And you see the, you know, you see the blanks next to some of these big names. And then you also see people like stepping up and trying to try to use their platform to do something. And again, like. I don't think celebrities are the most important thing right now, but it is interesting that Nashville, at least like a younger generation of it, is sort of like policing response to this. Policing may be a bad term, but, you know, sort of tracking who's saying what. Holding them accountable, whereas people kind of look the other way since the dawn of time. I mean, and also, you know, the world of NASCAR, you know, a younger generation is really changing. Something that seemed like it would never change, you know?

I'm suspicious that when you think of Nashville and the stranglehold they have on country music, they still care about radio. Everything moves slowly. There's a handful of program directors who basically make the whole industry tick. Do I think they're going to let this lead to any lasting change? Probably not. Why mess with the country club when it's working so well for the few of them? It's working for. I find myself very cynical, I guess, from covering the entertainment industry for so many years that there's going to be any lasting change in some of these siloed niches. That's the wrong attitude to have, my friend. I'm not an optimist. We're taking down Weinstein, all these people. It could trickle down. Also, these old country gatekeepers are just going to die off soon. That is guaranteed, at least. But I do think that celebrity, though, as a person, and you both know this about me, I fucking love celebrities. Yeah, and as do I. And this is not the time, I agree, but we got to remember that most of America and the world are dum-dums. So if you are on the fence about being a racist for some reason, and your favorite singer or actor... or musician or whatever comes out against it and that makes you look inward and think about it more deeply. I mean, that's positive. You know what I mean? I guess you're right. I just hope that people would read less of Lady Antebellum's Instagram and more books, you know? Yes, but I think we're a long ways past books, my friend. Books is gone. Books have been over. Sorry to tell you, but I just think that... People our age will. I think that a 20-year-old who might not know better and doesn't read much to begin with, I don't think it's going to be Lady Antebellum, maybe. But my point being that a spark coming from something.

I guess. Lady A could be a stepping stone to them discovering an evanescence or a band with a stronger message, perhaps. I hope you guys are right, but I'm going to go ahead and give more credit to the people who are in the streets than the people who are on their pages. I'll definitely give credit to people in the streets. My thing is what you run into in the South. I had a big discussion with my parents when I got home. My parents are both... early 60s conservative born and raised in the South, you know, never left Atlanta. Both of them, maybe not surprised me, but they were basically like, oh yeah, fuck this. We ain't fucking with Trump. We ain't fucking with racists. That was a murder, blah, blah, blah. The thing my parents and most parents I think have a hard time with is the looting, you know, and the riots and not understanding that that's kind of what it took. for people to notice it's not like it's not because they get they still get their news from the television and not from twitter or yeah i mean that's or the beautiful new york times but what but my point my point being is that like if that it's like there's so many reasons for people to resist you know or like or or find something to not understand you know that that's what i'm saying and even though The conversation, my parents being 90% positive and same thing with my, when I stopped in Nashville and saw some of my old Southern friends, guys that have, some have lived in New York, some are, you know, some haven't, but these are guys I grew up with. They're all with it too. They're all like with it. You know what I mean? And like, but, but there are going to be things. Everybody's not going to just be like fully on board with burning a city down. They don't understand that there's a positive there. I mean, I just think, you know, the way that social media is poison for our generation and anyone younger, like cable news is that like times 10 for, you know, people of our parents' generation. And, you know, you saw the coverage of the protests stopped basically once, you know, the Rolex store, yeah, got stopped getting smashed. Like, it's just, you know, it's...

It's some bullshit, basically. Wow. Thank you for summing it up. That's it. All right. Thanks, Joe. Thanks for having us. No, I mean, I agree. But I think those conversations and like, you know, I'm about to go see my sister and her husband and like his parents are here. You know what I mean? They're from Tennessee. I just, you know, it's like. this shit is just going to happen. And these people aren't, you're just not going to agree and you're going to have to talk about it, which I think is maybe the first time this is ever, I've ever felt that in my life. I mean, but that's work also for people like you, like us, you know, it is like, like shooting up, listening, learning, but also talking to people like that's, you know, that's real. Yeah. Because Twitter, I mean, my fucking, my shit is a, a complete echo chamber. No one. No one. You know what I mean? They get more mad about me not liking Frank Ocean. You know what I'm saying? It's like they don't give a fuck. They're fully on board with burning down the city, but me not fucking Frank Ocean is a cancelable offense. So it's like taking it to the streets, for lack of a better term, is the most important. Yeah, take it to the table. But everyone has a job on the team, you guys, even podcasters. That's true. Yeah, that's true. What are you guys going to do with Diary of a Song right now? Yeah, so Diary of a Song is my little New York Times video YouTube series. And that's the one thing that I kept doing while I was on book leave. So they sent me a mobile kit. That's because you're a superstar, baby. They can't let that shit. When he goes Hollywood, they can't go back. You're the Brad Leone of the New York Times, bro. They can't lose their moneymaker. I get it. Let's avoid the Bon Appetit comparisons for now. Okay, we will avoid the comparisons. um, as long as we can talk about it later on. Yeah. So, you know, so we have three episodes sort of in the can that have, that are being worked on, um, behind the scenes. And, you know, we have one that's going to come out next that I'll have a little bit of a protest tie in, um, you know, for, we did a local rap song. I won't, I won't give it away, but, um, local to New York or local, local to New York. Yeah. Um, so,

We hit pause on publishing that for now in hopes, again, to just let the news and the demonstrations breathe and let the important conversations happening continue to happen without coming in with some fluff. I think we'll come back hopefully in a couple weeks based on the temperature of the world. it's still important to cover, you know, the music that is connecting with young people and like that can be political in its own way. Um, so we're, we're sticking with it. We're just trying to be cautious and aware, uh, of how it looks to enter the conversation right now, but you know, we're, we're, we're keeping with it. We have, we have episodes, uh, in the chamber. Well, as a, as a fan, I'm, I'm desperately waiting as you know, I'm a, I'm a big fan. That's like, um, I just think that's the content people really love. I appreciate it. I think that it's so digestible, but it's also like you guys – I mean I've learned a lot personally because some of those songs I actually don't know, which is both sad to me that I don't know them, but it's informative. I actually learn about the artist beyond the song and who wrote it. But I've always been interested in that side of the music business. I think that since the dawn of – in the last 10, 15 years, a major – a larger swath of people have started to care about who's producing songs, who's writing songs. Um, and that kind of, that sort of secrecy behind it is totally erased. And, and I think it, it allows for, it's more interesting to hear about it. I get to think that someone can do something that great alone. is almost insane. That we thought that for so long. They just sit down with the guitar, they write this song. Some people still do it alone, though. Some people. But we're so far from the Lennon-McCartney era.

I've basically, I've wanted that, like, that's my whole purpose at the New York Times is to try to, like, pull back the curtain on some of this shit. It's like, why is this the biggest stuff in the world? Who is making it? How is it being marketed? How is it traveling, you know, through the internet? Like, that, you know, that's the only thing that's interesting to me about this industry. I think the one with, is his name Lil Teca? Lil Teca, yeah. That was really, I mean, that shit to me was so modern and so current in every way. I was just blown away. I'm like, these motherfuckers have never met. They didn't like, they hadn't met. They were making so much money. It was such a big song and they'd never met. That to me is like, the most modern and also, like, scary as a 37-year-old man who likes, like, bands with guitars. It's like, this is really not your time, bro. This is not, this is not, the world has officially shifted. These motherfuckers ain't even met before. Yeah, you have a bunch of white teenagers making beats in their parents' house. You have black teenagers finding them on YouTube, and then all of a sudden it's, like, taking over the world. Like, that's magic. Was the Lil Nas X song the same thing? Yeah, I mean, look, the kid who produced that, he's sampling Nine Inch Nails. He didn't even know who Nine Inch Nails was. That's so sick. He was in the Netherlands. You know, this kid, Kiyo, like, he was... in the netherlands sampling a band that he'd never heard of uh and all of a sudden it's the biggest song of all time like that it's not to be corny but it is like a power of music kind of shit in a lot of ways you know of course the so not the next episode we have coming out but the one after that is uh that's going to be a chris black special uh that that one um dedicated in advance to you oh my god did you oh i can't even imagine what this is i don't even i mean you could probably if i gave you three guesses. He already got Taylor Swift. Come on, Jason. Catch up, loser. I know. That was the first thing to make fun of you off the top of my head. I'm sorry. They already had Dua Lipa, too, Jason, for you. Well, that is an episode that I actually did watch. Well, thank you. No, I mean, I'm saying I didn't catch the Taylor, but I did catch the Dua. Just, you know, I'm a fan.

There's something for everybody. And that's what I mean. What was the first one? The first one we did was The Middle. That song I had been listening to non-stop on my exercise playlist. And I was so embarrassed about it. And I was like, oh, they fucked with it. All right, well, it's fine. It's a banger. It's undeniable. Don't they use an axe chop for Game of Thrones in a sample? That is so lame and just so – it's just so crazy to me. But do you have – like are these – are people that you approach, are most people down after they see it or they heard of it or what is your experience most of the time? I mean it's funny. Now that I can say like – I can rattle off like, oh, we had Taylor Swift, Lizzo, Rosalia, Lil Nas X, Billie Eilish. Then people are like, oh, yeah, we want in on that. It wasn't always that way. And you still get people who say no because they don't want to draw attention to the fact that they're not writing their own music. That's what I was going to ask. I feel like there's a lot of people that are probably in denial about the fact that everybody knows you ain't writing this yourself. I mean, look, I wanted to do Dua Lipa two years ago for New Rules, her biggest song ever. New Rules, she didn't have anything to do with writing that, so she's not going to agree to say, oh, my biggest hit? I didn't do that. Yeah, that makes sense. That's a smart decision. I won't name other... uh, rappers who may or may not be writing their own lyrics. Uh, but I've, I've had some, I've had some, some big names turn me down because they don't want to draw attention to that fact. Damn. I was hoping you were going to name names so we can get this podcast canceled really quick. You need to start blackmailing people. Yeah. I don't, all this journal, all this journalistic integrity ain't going to get you anywhere. Okay. Like that's not, that's not, that's not where we sit.

I got to keep my job right now. No, I understand. I understand. Did you have to deal with any of that op-ed stuff? Were you involved in those conversations internally? I mean, I'll say what it did was it got me on Slack heavy for the first time. Okay. All of the action, you know, I'm basically, I'm at this point where I'm like, I'm too old for Slack. Like, I don't, my editors doesn't need another way to get in touch with me, you know? They know where to find me. So I've sort of resisted diving into the full culture of these Slack chat rooms that have taken over the times in the last year. But all of the action, you know, in discussing the op-ed stuff was happening there. So I was like heavy on it for that week. But mostly, you know, just sitting back and reading. being frankly amazed by my colleagues in how sort of both straightforward and moderate they were in their tone, but also completely incensed, you know, and rightfully so. So I think it was really inspiring to watch people organize and express. uh, you know, years of pent up frustrations, uh, with management about, you know, inequality at the times in various ways. Uh, and just, you know, seeing, especially sort of my black colleagues, um, step up and, and, and make a stand that made a lot of sense, you know, it was a very, like, like agreed. It was very concise in a way. It was like, no, no, this is, this is the X, Y, Z of this. And you can't really say much about it. There's no defense. There's no defense of it, really. You have a Matt Taibbi or Andrew Sullivan trying to say that these people were being hysterical. And as somebody who watched it happen, watched it unfold from the very first moment, it was anything but hysterical. I haven't read that Matt, the sub-stack thing that he wrote about.

I mean, you don't need to. You get the idea. That was my question. Should I read it or no? I mean, it's not worth it. That's the thing. I think the sheer amount of information is it's nice to know that stuff that's unnecessary and offensive is not going unchecked. You know what I mean? Yes. It's literally just so insane every single day that stuff just can fly under the radar because it's just like people only have so much time and so much patience and so much wherewithal. to read all this stuff and see all this stuff. I'm a consumer. I try to take it all in. I watch everything. I listen to everything. I read everything, but it's not healthy. I'm an advocate for just ignoring certain people. There's no need to boost their newsletter subscriber numbers. My problem is that at my core, I'm a little bit of a hate follower. And I believe I'm also the receiver of the hate follow as well. So I feel like I have to give back to the hate follow community. Interesting. I never thought about that, but you must have a lot of hate followers, Chris. So I'm going to go ahead and break the fourth wall and make this meta for a second. So Carrie, Batten, my girlfriend, you know. every time I would sort of walk into her room of the house during quarantine, she was listening to this podcast. Yes. And, and I was sort of clowning on her at the beginning and she was like, and she was flip flopping a bit, whether it was a hate, a hate listen or not a hate listen. But I think, I think you've made a fan of her ultimately. We take, we take all listens. That's the thing. As the creator, you cannot be concerned why people are listening. You just hope they listen. We appreciate the transparency as well as the ad. revenue. Thank you to you and your girlfriend. I think you guys do a good job booking-wise of alternating hate listens with love listens. For various kinds of people. That actually is the goal. I think that's the goal. Everybody can find something to hate and something to love. Sometimes if you have a guest on that is going to be a hate listen,

we know we can kind of subconsciously play into that and tee up some, some shit for the listener to hate on. Oh, of course. You know, I will say that I shout out to Carrie for being your most loyal listener. Yes. Yes. Yes. Unfortunately, the one episode she's not going to listen to. Did you, have you guys, you guys have been doing podcast or you haven't been doing it. So this is actually my audition to get back on podcast. Oh, you know, the fact that I've never asked to be on is a little shocking to me, but I understand that I'm not really there yet clout-wise. I mean, you know, Popcast is... And also, Chris, you're not really a pop. That's John's baby. that's caramonica's baby you know i uh i pop in uh when i'm when i'm needed and when i'm relevant but i don't i don't do the i don't do the invites no i look i understand how the how the system works this is interesting because john has been a guest on this podcast oh i know you remember and you know he's having his old boss from the stores it looks like inside baseball to me is all i'm saying is all i'm saying it's a little bit like If you cut him a check, then maybe you get on the podcast. I see how it works now, and I understand a little better. Look, everybody, all the listeners to this podcast, please subscribe to PopCast, where you get your audio content. I will say, though, the time that Cartel has gotten mentioned on the podcast, the amount of messages I get, it's almost as good as being on. We have a real loyal subscriber base. I mean, so a couple months ago, someone created a Facebook group for podcast fans. And I have to say, it is the best music message board going. Really? I'm a member of a few Facebook groups for that kind of reason. There's like an old Atlanta hardcore one that's like incredible. Wow. Just like relics. Wow. But I've learned that Facebook groups are where the real fans live, which I didn't really know until like a couple years ago. Especially for podcasts. It's a real thing. And I don't – it's, I guess, the only reason to have Facebook at this point.

Yeah, I mean, it's the only reason I check. What can we do to remove that from Facebook? Because Facebook is so bad and I haven't had it for years. Well, they're moving. I think actually the podcast group is now moving to either Slack or Discord to have an even higher volume of tech hosting. I don't know what Discord is, but I keep hearing people throwing the name around. Is it encrypted or something? You're getting old. No, it's just like a message board service where you can just open up a message board, public or private, and discuss subjects. I mean, Reddit is also pretty popular. Yeah, I mean, it's a form of all that. The one thing that I kept on when I was mostly off social media was Reddit. I'm a big Reddit lurker. Yeah, you just see these sort of subcultures just really going in. Like the vibrant stuff that you can find in these dark corners. Walk us through some of your favorite subreddit forms to find some gold in, my friend. I mean, not safe for work. Filter is on. Look, if you really want the dregs of internet humanity, the... caroline calloway subreddit is extremely lit uh and borderline abusive uh but to her or to each other both to the world yeah yeah uh it's extremely active and then i mean you know sometimes i'll even pop onto the red scare subreddit to just that that's like a whole a whole other you fucking neo-liberal I mean, these people are insane. I would only do that if I was single. Look, I just need to know what the people are saying, especially with Dime Square mostly closed for business. Yeah, what are you going to do? Interesting. The only thing I've used Reddit for is bodyweight workouts, so I guess I'm missing out on the real tea out here. I mean, yeah, it can be dark, but then you just have the sort of

The famous Reddit stuff, the Today I Fucked Up Reddit, T-I-F-U, where people just talk about something that went wrong in their life or ask me anything, that kind of stuff. Obviously, they get a lot of shit Reddit as an organization for its fostering of racism, sexism, homophobia, everything bad. I mean, that stuff I think is important to see sometimes, to just know how bad it can get in the depths of the internet. But there's some wholesome content too. There's some good puppy videos. There's some good stuff on 4chan too. Yeah, I don't go that deep. Didn't Patia say she started using 4chan, Jason? Yeah, she said she was on 4chan when she was like 12 or something. I mean, if you follow her accounts, you can see that. Yeah, but in her DNA. But that's just so crazy to me. Because I guess I always, from the get-go of hearing about that, was told, you don't need to go there. I mean, you saw Doja Cat basically get canceled for her 4chan days, her 8chan days. I forgot about Doja Cat. Yeah, I mean, she got a little lucky that she was getting canceled right as the world started to burn. Do you think she'll recover? I mean, recover in that she has the biggest song on the radio right now. I don't know if she needs to recover. Is she on a major? Oh, yeah. She's a Dr. Luke acolyte. Oh, that's right. And that's the other controversial thing about her. Yes. Because the whole thing with Dr. Luke is that he never went away. He just had a pseudonym. Yes, he's been ghost producing or just quietly guiding careers. I mean, this man has a million businesses. He owned, at one point, a huge chunk of core water or whatever. Oh, really? Yeah, I mean, this guy is like a hundred millionaire outside of music. So he never went anywhere. But yeah, I mean, Kim Petras, that's another one. Did he do Sweet But Psycho?

No, no, no, no, no. That's Ava Max. I know, but I was about to say, damn, if he had anything to do with Sweet But Psycho, I was going to be upset because that's a fucking smash. Not that I know of, but yeah, no, he's kicking around if you know where to look. Who's the next producer that you think will be canceled? You got any insight? Oh, wow. Is it going to be Zed? We're hoping for Zed, right? Look. I can't guess this sort of thing. Let me do my reporting and I'll get back to you. Joe also is, even though we're friends, you truly broke my heart because you're the one who took down Ryan Adams single-handedly. Not single, you had some help. We don't think of it as taking people down. We think of it as... exposing the truth, but I'm sorry that Ryan Adams is not a nice man. I've come to terms with that fact, and also it wasn't that much of a surprise to anyone who's a real fan, but I do think that what I think is interesting about him and many of these other people is that it seems like he's just kind of sniffing around and on Instagram. If you have a big enough fan base, Can you just come back? Definitely. Direct to consumer? Definitely. I mean, look at Louie. I think that Ryan Adams is going to go the Louie route. Whether or not he gets a big label or a big management company behind him, which he probably will, quietly at some point. Yeah, I mean, if he posted a new album and said, PayPal me $10 for it. got booked at some independent clubs, people are going to go. People are not. And you've sort of seen, if you've paid any attention to what's happened to Ryan Adams, is like the sort of men's rights activists of the world have chosen him as a hero, just as they have Louis or Weinstein or anyone else like that. That must suck. Like, I don't want you guys. Like, relax. I'm not interested in your – you cannot choose who your fans are. That's the biggest problem in the world. I mean, I don't know if some of these guys have the same reservations about that that you do. That's true.

Good point. And this is the thing about cancellation. If you're a white man, it's really hard to actually cancel you. You're going to continue to work. I think with him, he basically was like, fuck you, I didn't do anything. It's not like he handled it well by any means. There was no grace. He didn't handle it well. He didn't even pretend to play the game. He was no Moby, let's say that. Exactly, exactly. And that, to me, being that defiant of something that's clearly true is a bigger cause for alarm almost. Totally. And, you know, yeah, he'll be back. But I do think that the cancellation stuff in all industries is running so rampant right now that I do think that I would say 75% of people will be back. I mean, look at Russell Simmons. That's another story that I worked on, you know, at the Times Forever. Can you explain, can you walk, just a quick overview of that? Because I've touched, I've like checked in on it, but I'm not fully aware. Yeah, so I guess, you know, in the sort of heat of the original Me Too, you know, we reported a big story, you know, with multiple women on the record named... All their stuff corroborated. We work on this stuff for months. Me and my fellow reporter, Melaina Rizek, who also did the Ryan Adams story with me. I worked on a bunch of Fyre Festival stuff with. She and I are a team in the culture department on these investigative stories. What we reported was only sort of the tip of the iceberg in terms of accusations of rape against Russell Simmons. And he's another one who just completely, you know, pushed back against it, said he never had any non-consensual sexual encounters, which, you know, if you go back and read our story, you can make up your own mind. But like, I think it's pretty clear. And, you know, dozens of women have come out both before and since to sort of.

with very similar stories. And this man moved to Bali. He hasn't been back from Bali, apparently, where there's no extradition to any states. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. And he's just doing yoga surrounded by young white women and acting like nothing happened. And so the reason this has kicked back up recently is there's this documentary, which is now on HBO Max, the new HBO streaming service, called On the Record. it follows this woman, Drew Dixon, who was the main source in our story. And she started being filmed for the documentary while we were reporting the story. So you can hear my voice like on the phone with her as she's deciding whether or not to go public with, you know, her account of being raped by Russell back in the 90s when she was an A&R at Def Jam. And, you know, she and these other sort of amazing, brave black women have come out with their stories. And, you know, they made this, documentary about how black women had been left out of the Me Too movement. It's an intense and powerful watch. I recommend that anybody who cares about hip-hop or gender equality watch it. He got Oprah seemingly to pull out of producing the film um and he was on the breakfast club last week uh talking about social justice and how he was like just a womanizer uh and you know you have these big platforms that continue to let people like that tell their side of the story and yeah i mean you know he might have had to uh get out from some of his businesses but he's like far from far from canceled jesus christ i didn't realize he had like gone to a non-extradition You know, that's like, to me, that's pretty clear. You know, I can't say what his legal advice has been, but I can say that he's been in quality for a long time. What do you think about The Breakfast Club and their whole, because, you know, I have a lot of opinions about Charlemagne and his advice for dum-dums, but I think that the, like, that platform and what he's doing and what he does with the podcast is, like, I think people give him

A lot of runway. I mean, so much. And I think some of that is to their credit. They are a huge platform. They are Howard Stern for the rap generation. They are the place to go. If you think of the Birdman interview, the 6ix9ine interview. Let's not forget the best one, Soldier Boy. Of course. I mean, they have hits on hits on hits. They can be really great interviewers, and then they can also be totally friendly to people who don't deserve it. I mean, they had Rush Limbaugh on to talk about the protests. Like Joe Rogan. Yeah, I mean, and it's the same thing. To me, as somebody in the media, you can't discount these... people with such reach and such access, especially at a time when famous people don't want to do interviews, basically. So I think it's a valuable platform, but do they stick their proverbial foot in their mouth all the time? Yeah, of course. Should they have Rush Limbaugh and Russell Simmons on? Probably not. But I think ultimately, it's like... most of the people they have on there I want to hear out. You've got to give Charlemagne credit. He's a survivor of a lot of bullshit and much of it of his own making, but he's also a leader in the culture whether we like it or not. I listened to him talk about the Rush Limbaugh thing, and he was basically kind of saying, I hope that... Rush Limbaugh listeners now know who I, you know, know the other side. And I'm like, bro, Rush Limbaugh people don't get, they ain't even going to watch it because they see a black guy on it. They don't give a fuck about you, dude. Like that's not, I understand that line of thinking. And in some cases I believe it would be true, but with Rush Limbaugh fam, we're not, we ain't going all the way. Yeah. Like I didn't need a Charlamagne interview to tell me that Rush Limbaugh doesn't believe in white supremacy. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of his platform. Like, you know what I mean? It doesn't.

I just find – I have a weird fascination with Charlemagne because I think that he is – I just – I don't think he's very smart. And I think that actually works in his favor. I think everything that he does, especially with the mental health stuff, is like so baseline that it like appeals to people in this like Gary V way where it's like rise and grind but of mental health. So you can't really be mad because it's more positive than negative. Right. I wonder if people go beyond, I just hope people are willing to go beyond what they learned from him and find where the source is, you know? Totally. And, you know, I think, is he a force for good? Is he a force for evil? Like, I don't know, but he's a force, you know? So I pay attention for that. Oh, it's impossible to ignore. I mean, especially I think if you live in New York, he's a, you know, he's a figure. Yeah, I mean, I think the Joe Rogan comparison is pretty apt, you know? For a different kind of person. I just saw a nice list of Joe Rogan's five favorite books. So I'll forward that to you guys after. It's the Fountainhead and the Bible, and there's a couple other ones. So I'm just, you know, I don't know. Two bangers. I'm sure the rest are good too. I'm just kidding. Two bangers. Two bangers. I mean. The man likes an epic. He does. He does. He does. Is there any, before we let you go, is there any new music we should be excited about besides the Phoebe Bridgers that's coming out? I mean that, you know, Phoebe Bridgers, a legend. I would like to say on this podcast that somehow I have not been sent the promo jukebox of that. Oh, wow. And I'm a little, Grandstand Media, you've been called out. Okay. All right. But you, I'm sure, have had it for a while. So can you confirm that it slaps? I wouldn't say that slaps is the word. Sure, sure, sure. You know what I mean. Phoebe loves nothing more than a stake in the heart and then to stomp on it. It depends on if you consider it. That's what I consider a slap. If emotional trauma or dark humor is slapping, then yes, the album is slapping. But has it got songs?

It's got songs. What else? Basically, I only listen to Lil Baby and John Prine these days. Wow. The range. Basically, anything coming up in Atlanta under Lil Baby or affiliated, I think is worth checking out. There's this guy, Lil Key, who he just signed. Not to be confused with Lil Key, who's also good. This dude, Lil Key. this other uh atlanta teen um rilo rodriguez this sort of there's this there's a real movement i think of um bluesy street rap you know they're using a lot of like sad guitar samples and just like spilling their hearts uh and rapping or like weird singing no no mostly rapping um i think there's like there's there's this i i sort of put this post little baby, this like introspective, uh, Southern rap. And that's like, that's, that's everything, uh, right now. The student no cap, um, uh, stuff like that. I mean, Polo G a little bit out of Chicago is, is doing something similar. Um, but, um, yeah, I'm, I'm moved. I'm really moved by these kids who are back to rapping, rapping, uh, and doing it, uh, in a way that's not, it's not like a J Cole thing, you know? Thank God. This is an anti-J. Cole podcast, so we're happy to hear that. Yeah, it's somewhere to the left of that in a way that I appreciate. Well, we haven't had a use or a need for club rap bangers in the last four months or something. It's true. I wonder if we'll ever get that back. I think we'll get it back, but it'll take some time. Don't worry. Yo Gotti's in the lab right now. One can only hope. One can only hope. Joe, thank you for joining us. And tell people where they can find you on the World Wide Web. Yeah, I'm back on these social platforms, at Joe Costacarelli on Twitter and Instagram, Diary of a Song on YouTube. Subscribe to the New York Times, whether you like it or not. All right, great, man. Thank you. I'll talk to you soon. We'll talk to you soon. I appreciate it. Later.

Thank you.