743. - Amanda Petrusich

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? It is 4.45 a.m. in Singapore. And I am looking at a black sky, them jeans. What's good? I'm just lighting a candle. The candle is called Morning Walk by Bougie Poochie. It's a gift from my beautiful neighbor across the street. I don't know what exactly it's for, but it smells good. I'm sorry, did you say Bougie Poochie? Bougie Poochie, it's sort of like the label looks, I think it's a candle. For the dogs. Oh, that's what I was getting at. And the label for it is like a diptyque candle. That's smart. Reimagined with an elegant dog on it. It's giving Chateau Marmotte, the famed grooming center in West Hollywood. One of your favorite spots. I just go there to look. You're a window shopper. I'm a window shopper. Mad as fuck. Yeah, I'm just good. Luckily, spirits are lifting slightly in Los Angeles. Okay, good. Fires are receding, but there is some wind. Yeah, yeah. There's a wind event happening today and tomorrow. I don't think I'm personally going to be in the eye of the storm. I think it's a little more.

other parts of the city but you know knocking on wood and uh shout out to all the people going through it hunkering down with some more wind let's hope your wi-fi and your electricity stick around so you could watch the office yeah shout out to everyone that is spending thousands of dollars on zen for firefighters um i i love that firefighters are requesting zen and celsius it really is a type of guy out there our frontline heroes are also the guys you're not supposed to date, apparently. Yeah, I've been going down to the fire station. I've been going down to the station, Glendale, FD, and getting lottery tickets and buzz balls. I saw, yeah, I mean, well, interesting enough, I think I saw a friend of the show, Trevor Skeet Skeet, was posting about he was going around gathering Zinn from local... zin retailers all over town yeah the same way that i would do with bottled water cases or at costco or something like that essential items for our frontline workers but i've noticed that people who want to help i mean obviously it's a beautiful thing but you know it's there is sort of a competition element involved because this is los angeles and we are all influencers so 100 yeah you know did you did you volunteer at the thingy if you don't post about it i saw yeah you can't you have to post i mean i saw i've seen receipts of zen purchases like like it's a guy at a club showing his bottle service to prove how much he spent that's exactly what it is that's you are doing the exact it's like well posting my my bottle receipt list from space miami where i spent twelve thousand dollars on water did not get me laid i got laid but i had to pay for it Maybe posting the receipts of me buying chomps sticks will fare me better. Nothing like it. It's amazing. In the virtue signaling Olympics. But I was wondering because I think I saw Trevor Skeet Skeet. He was the first person to tweet about it a few days ago about, you know, let's think outside of the box. He's a big picture guy. And he was getting zines for people. And I've noticed that, like you said, you know, give them a Celsius. These guys don't want.

bottled water and healthy snacks yeah you know i want the food that i really want and i get that you know give me the comfort meals i don't want the quinoa bowl i mean these guys lead anything but shake shack yeah no no i wouldn't i wouldn't i wouldn't eat that but i'm wondering will you know will we come up with new ideas and have we is in the last stop on the train before it becomes like if i start okay if i start giving them cigarettes Is that too far? Yeah, because that involves fire. I think that's why that's too far. I don't want them to smoke while they're in the forest putting out the fire. So wait until they get home. I think it's more cocaine methamphetamine is where I could see it going. Because those actually help you. Well, I mean, until they don't. So I'll go, okay, Addy's, something like that? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you can crush up Adderall and bring it to your frontline responders, I think that's going to help. I do. If you could just pre-crush it, that'd be great. Pre-crush, okay. Do a little vivance. Yeah, do a little vivance. Whenever I hear people say the word vivance and then I read the word vivance, it sounds way different in my head when I read it versus when I hear it spoken. Do you feel the same way, Chris? It reminds me of, for some reason, I think of Vidal Sassoon. I think of a hairdresser when I say vivance. I think bon vivant. I'm not beating the allegations with that one, but to be honest. What's on my mind? The geniuses over at Vidal Sassoon and what they've done for us. I mean, he's the blueprint. What can I say? He's kind of always on my mind. Always on my mind. I'm glad to hear it's looking a little bit up, and we're obviously paying close attention. What's up? Yeah, Carolyn is going to go. She's been working hard, staying busy, doing some cool styling work for families in need where she's got spreadsheets out. She's literally doing her job but for displaced victims who don't have clothes. She's doing pulls. She's getting sizes. That's a real use of time. That's cool. I mean, it's cool because it's not just like, I don't know. There's a lot of people out there who are really grateful to receive anything in a time of need when you don't have anything.

But also, some of these people are like, I have money, I can buy clothes, but I don't have a house to put them in, and all my clothes are gone. So it's tough. A lot of people are maybe a little too proud to go into the back of a parking lot and dig through a dumpster full of clothes to see if you have something your size. So it adds a nice level of humanism to be like, hey, what does your daughter like to wear? Is she goth? into hyper pop you know whatever you know yeah no is your i know your son wants zins we don't do that just kind of more socks and underwear so that's nice but it is it is cool and i'm happy to see you doing that she's volunteering um i think over at cafe tropical tonight um and i'm gonna maybe stop by over there but you know daddy's got a pod so that is gonna see if i get there we have to keep a roof over our head i just wanted to say I wanted to give condolences to Francis Tiafoe, who has unfortunately taken his talents to Lululemon. You usually never get me with these, but I really thought you were going to say something serious. Hey, bro. I've got to keep TJ on his toes. Tiafoe went to Lulu? Tiafoe went to Lulu. But I think that what's happening is that... Nike is just like, we're going to pay Yannick and Carlos and everybody else can get the help. I've been watching the Australian Open because it's in the same time zone. It's on all day while I'm here. I've had it on all day in the hotel when I'm in and out. The amount of sponsors I've had to Google is the most ever, especially for men. I'm learning about weird Danish workout brands. You know what I mean? Things I've never heard of. Far beyond sweaty buddy. Far beyond sweaty body, but showing up in the all-pink Lulu is... I would rather... I don't know, man. I might rather wear my stylusone at that point. Even Ben Shelton said, that's too gay for me. I saw him reading a headline, Francis Jeffo picks up a tough victory after throwing up at the Australian Open. Yeah, he threw up on the Melbourne sign. Like, the Melbourne word on the court is gnarly.

It's fucking normal. I mean, it's hot. I'm sure it's hot as fuck, but these guys are good. It's been good. It's doing good tennis, though. I've been watching a lot. The first round's been really good. Some nice battles out there in Melbourne. Okay, good. I'm glad that you're staying busy working hard over there in Singapore. Are you absorbing the local culture to Penn? Well, I mean, I think I went to much of the food. The food stall shit is fucking crazy. Like, it's very, very impressive. And the hawker stalls. Yeah. And I was able to get a nice raw coconut, which, you know, is one of my favorite things to do while everyone else is eating, you know, insane noodles. But I went to say noodles. It's a bunch of people who are not fat. I went to a local like a kind of Singaporean Malaysian restaurant. I think it's called Rampana. And the owner was like a sort of a known guy in town. I guess he was very cool. But I told you this. was having this salad and it was giving me this crunch that I just loved with a little bit of spice. And then I was like, what is this? And I learned about a new legume and I just wanted to bring it to your attention. The winged bean. is is something i'd never had before wing bean winged bean oh yeah wing bean which i feel like isn't the green bean family um yeah but it's like it was delicious and had a great texture wow okay i don't i haven't really tangled with the winged bean too much but it kind of looks like a fucked up looking green bean like a long yeah No, that was cool because the waiter had to say it to me like four times before I was like, wing? You're saying wing? And he was like speaking perfect English. I was just shocked by it. And then he walked away and came back with his phone open to show me like the Wikipedia page for wing bean. Wow, that's sweet of them. It was very sweet. It was good. It was delicious. So are you liking the local culture and are they welcoming you with open arms? They're very nice. everybody's very nice the it's really lush it feels like um it's hard to explain but it kind of feels like if vegas and miami were really really nice and clean and everybody obeyed the law and it it it's like a jungle i mean it's literally a jungle you know so it's like when you're driving down the street it's beautiful and the buildings are beautiful it's cool i saw some crazy old shit um in the in like the chinatown yesterday basically there's like a

there's just a certain kind of house here where like a family lives and it's apparently it's shaped like the human, it's supposed to be like the human body. Like the front of the house literally looks like a face when you look at it. Like it's a door with two windows. Fun idea. And then the bathroom is in the back, literally. So it's supposed to be like the human, it's supposed to be like the human body, which is pretty clever. That's one word for it. Yeah, it's been fun. I did need some more. uh recognizable flavor so i was able to go to austria mozza last night and get a little a dose of nancy silverton maz on my palate uh after all the local fare that's the thing you can do it all here was she was she there behind the counter or did it have a different staff it did have a different staff um okay but that's you know that was to be expected what did you did you order the nancy's chopped hold the salami what'd you get i had the nancy caesar which i love there because it's basically like you know the the piece of bread with the the dressing and then the the eggs on top and then the and then the lettuce separately and then i had a little pizza a little zaza deconstructed beautiful it's deconstructed but yeah i mean i'm i've also discovered a world-class gym where i'm able to sauna and steam at the Grand Hyatt just down the street. So I'm feeling pretty good, except that I'm, you know, sleeping 12 hours a night and still waking up at 3 a.m. Are you really sleeping 12 hours a night? No, but I went to bed last night at like 8. I couldn't keep my eyes open. Like I went to dinner early. I came back and I just cannot keep my eyes open. And because I knew I had to get up early, too. So I think that fucks with me a little bit. This is very Brian Johnson. Don't die energy. You're getting your full 12. Yeah. Yeah. I love I love I love I've only watched 45 minutes of that, but it really is. And I've been getting ads now because his freaky son is doing the same thing. His son took a year off of college to work with dad.

i don't know if he had the option to i think his dad it was like wants to be him is living vicariously through him while also wanting to yes not have sex with them but not you know not not i think it's more of a wear his skin type thing you know what i mean i think that's the literal literally yeah i think i think he's that's what he's trying he like he's most people are like i'm kind of living vicariously through you right now and then brian's like i'm literally i think i'm going to live Just through you. As you. And I will not stop. That's 100% what's going on. He doesn't use the V word. Yeah, I watched 45 minutes of it as well. And I feel bad for him because his story is interesting and he is sacrificing his body for human science clinical testing where nobody else will or can afford to. So I think he's moving the... He's moving the chains forward for that kind of stuff. He's taking risks with his body. I'm just a little bit of a why not. He's a fun guy to make fun of, but also it's his money. Who cares? He's not hurting anybody. He's doing something that is completely... He designed some software, bought Venmo. He's cashed out early. He has turned into a full freak, but to me, a lot of the stuff that he says... makes perfect sense and i think yeah he's not wrong like the world in america definitely needs to hear it and i was i was thinking about some some through lines between him and rfk where a lot of stuff they say makes sense but the delivery system is so fucked up looking or sounding because you have to you have to look at that no one wants to absorb it you know and so you're kind of the whole time you're like what the fuck is wrong with this guy and then 20 minutes in, you're like, oh, Mormon. Got it. Okay. Yeah, that explains everything. We have a guest today. I don't think she's Mormon. I'm not totally sure. Amanda Petrusich is the... Petrusich. Petrusich. I said it wrong. I knew I was going to say it wrong. Thank you. Silence, Petrusich.

Sorry. I've never said it out loud until today, so I had to watch a video to make sure. Yeah, luckily there's a TikTok out there that'll tell you how to pronounce her last name. Unfortunately, it did just get deleted. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy, but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools.

So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. Do you need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together, a cabinet. Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture. repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world, is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app. using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. How are you? I'm great. How are you guys? I'm good. Where are you coming from? Home? Yeah, I live in the Hudson Valley. I moved upstate.

I feel like chiefly so I would have a repository for all my crap. It looks nice. It looks good up there. Well, thank you very much. It's nice. Join us here in the forest. I'm good, but I'm glad. Did you just call your house a repository for all your crap? I did, yeah. You've got to be a little more kind to your dwelling. Not dwelling. I have a very sick record collection. I should not speak ill of the records. Okay, I'm looking right now. It kind of looks like if Grandma's house had some dope-ass vinyl in it. And that's not because you are giving Grandma, but the home itself. It's like Tori Amos' aunt lives here kind of feel to it. Non-derogatory. Huge compliment. Thank you. Jason's only been to the Hudson Valley one time, so he doesn't realize that that's what every house looks like, that it's grandma vibes kind of across the board. But you've customized. Lesbian vibes as well. Don't sleep on that. You have a modern TV, which is nice to see. I have a television. Yeah, the fireplace is nice. Hudson Valley, how often do you come into money-making Manhattan then? Yeah, great question. A couple times, I would say like once a week. Okay, what are we doing? Are we driving? Are we training? Well, I was at the Cloisters yesterday. I was doing an interview for a profile at the Cloisters. I drove, which was actually like a weirdly delightful experience, but I live very close to a Metro North train station. Hold on. So you did an outdoor interview at the Cloisters yesterday? We were inside. For a listener, we have a global impact audience. Can you explain what the Cloisters are and why does it sound like a... Like an idea more than a place? Yeah, maybe it is. It is an art museum, a medieval art museum owned and operated by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I think I'm allowed to say this. I was there with Lucy Dacus, who I'm writing about for the magazine. Big D! Quick question. We've been talking to her people about her coming on How Long Gone. She doesn't seem like a real giggler. Can you give me any insight just quickly? Scale of one to ten on the Lawler meter. How much will we offend Lucy Dacus in one hour of conversation? Interesting question. We had some laughs. I had a great time with her. One of you are two straight guys.

This funny quality, which I feel intensely. In fact, I was texting with a friend of mine, former guest of the pod, August Thompson. And I was like, suddenly I feel very nervous. You guys have this Don Draper-ish quality of like, I really want them to like me. And I feel like that could, you know, that could overpower the offensiveness. I mean, I'm we're we're big fans. I mean, I love the money's for Amanda. I love Lucy Dacus and I love that she signed to a major label post boy geniuses. Go time. Actually, speaking of Lucy, just this morning, I texted a screenshot to Chris earlier and it's a screenshot of my Twitter trending topics window. And it says in this exact order, Beyonce Panda Express. Lucy Dacus Chipotle. What do you think that means, Amanda? Is there a through line? Is there a correlation? Is someone trying to tell me something? That's an American poem. I mean, Lucy's the outlier there, right? Among those. um i don't know i don't know i think lucy likes chipotle and panda maybe in a fusion style bowl she's been touring she's been touring for a long time like those are places that you kind of have to hit one of the only those are two i can get a little tofu and brown rice at panda on the road Chipotle, I can go grain-free. Who among us does not love that? Jason, I didn't know they had tofu at Panda Express. I've never graced them with my presents. That was my high school slot meals. I had two when I was vegan. I would eat Wendy's French fries and Coke. Sure, of course. Or with tomato sauce on the side. Or Panda Express, tofu and eggplant. No eggplant. oops all tofu because i was like eggplant nasty eggplant i would like some coagulated bean curd please that's really interesting yeah i don't that that american poem amanda which is very well put and i think that's how i'm gonna look at all trending topics from now on when i list them off is if you think of it more as experimental poetry it becomes a lot more exciting i smell book number two chris you know what i mean congratulations on the book by the way thank you yeah amanda's like oh but you got one that's cute how many you got now amanda what are you up to now you got three

Yeah, must be not must be nice. So do you sit here now? What is your method? Because people have been offering me their methods. And it's interesting what I've what I've heard so far. But Chris, when you say sorry to interrupt, when you say people are offering, are they actually offering? Are you asking? Is it like a lot of people are asking me about my skincare? No, no. So here it is. It's not like that. Multiple people have been like, hey, this is kind of what I do. If you need anything, I'm here. Please let me know. I would you know, I can I can offer any advice, which is very nice. OK. And Kyle Chayka was the most descriptive and his method seemed pretty sound. But Amanda, if you have any tips or things that have just worked for you. Sure. I mean, I am going to give an annoying answer to this question, which is I am a compulsive writer and really love. Right. My favorite part of the day, which I know gross, barf, annoying. But so for me, I feel like it's not that part of it is not so much a challenge. Like, how do I make? Yeah, yeah. Don't do the work like there is a great deal of pleasure in it for me. Well, I don't know people. I'm also not that distracted by the Internet. I feel like I don't find the Internet particularly interesting. Well, well, you're talking to a guy that is. immensely distracted by the internet, as well as just anything walking by. You should see this guy around the wind. Well, maybe a better question would be, can you teach Chris how to like writing? No, I don't even mind. I don't mind writing. And when I say that, can you teach me how to like writing, please? I'm not one of those people who's like, I can't do this. I can't sit down. I can do it under the right circumstances, but I will be checking Instagram every [redacted address]. There is a way. There's no way. It's fine. Aren't there, like, those things now where you can, like, stick your phone somewhere with, like, a magnet? Yeah, but I have the code, but it's like I have the nuclear code. So how real is that? Well, we were joking about this just, yes, on the last pod. He said that he may have to literally hire a security guard to watch, like, a physical person that can overpower him in strength and size to hold his phone. Chris, I think you need to just...

Well, I think Nomi Fry mentioned putting her phone in the car. Yeah. Was it her or somebody else? So it's like a little too annoying to go get. Yeah. There's something that you can do. But, Amanda, you're saying you wake up, you stretch, you put your Folgers on, sit down at the desk. I've seen your view, too, on Instagram. You've got the prime time lush view to look at. So you're looking at nature and just talking about light beer and MJ Linderman, and it's just flying off the fingers. It's flying off. It's almost not fair. Yeah, that's the job description, right? I'm sort of gently stirring my Sanka and just blindly, you know, kind of gazing off into the middle distance and having big ideas. That's what it looks like. It happened again. Yes. Another one. That's what we're so jealous of. So you don't have any, you just sit down and bang it out. And it's, I mean, obviously you have. you know, ups and downs of it, but overall you're saying that that's not the hard part for you. What about like organization and like keeping it all kind of in on the rails inside the perimeter parameters? Yeah. I mean, I would rather be writing than doing almost anything else. A part of the job that I don't love is like preparing for interviews. Like I think. The older I've gotten, the more, and maybe you two are the exact right people to talk to about this. The older I've gotten, the more open I am to just kind of winging it. Or I should say open to like the joys and rewards of winning it. Hey, welcome home. Welcome home. I think that comes with the ability to wing it increasing with experience, you know, age, time, whatever. But, you know, I would say the singularity is somewhere in between. winging it and preparing right of course and i guess like in some ways i've been preparing my entire career to talk to musicians like there is an accumulation of knowledge that uh is useful yeah for sure yeah i think there's also a level of preparation that when you get into fucking nard war dork territory where i'm like i don't even care about this this is so far down the rabbit hole that i don't know who this is for at a certain point

Yeah, it's very possible to over-research and I think show up and you're no longer even remotely curious about the person or who they are. They work because you feel like you have maybe figured it out. I think that's a very dangerous place to work from. That is a very dangerous place to work from. I've read everything about you and now I have nothing to ask or say. That is going to stifle kind of the whole interview process. Yeah, completely, completely. Yeah, well, have you noticed that from the beginning of your career, interviewing people to now? just the overall style of interviewing has changed or shifted? I mean, obviously it has with social media and clips and tidbits and screenshots and stuff like that, but maybe your personal style? Yeah, for sure. I used to be infinitely more professional and, like, I think more aware of and respectful of boundaries, and now I think I just sort of show up and just... I don't know, say whatever I want to say. You're getting, yeah, you're getting, but I feel like because of the outlets that you, the outlet that you work for, as well as writing books, I think people go into that more willing to go deep, if that makes sense. Like, I think it's a place where that's going to happen, where it's not, I don't know, does that make sense? Like, they're coming to you, they're like, oh, it's the New Yorker, this is the big leagues, like, let's do this, let's have multiple sessions. Like, it's not the 90s, you're not spending a week at the Chateau Marmont with them, but you're getting plenty of time. Yeah. Are you? Maybe not a week at the Chateau Marmont, but I've had one of the great luxuries of working in a place like the New Yorkers. I spent a year with Metallica reporting a profile. I'm working on a piece at the moment about fish. I wouldn't wish either of these are my worst enemies, so God bless you. I started working on the fish profile in August, and that won't be due until the spring. Wow. Hold on. How many fish? How many Phish shows have you had to endure so far? Well, I went to – they threw a festival in August called Mondegreen, a festival in Delaware, which I attended. And then I was – James Murphy voice – I was there. I was at Phish at Madison Square Garden as 24 bled into 25. I was there, man. Okay. I've actually only experienced that remotely because I used to occasionally spend New Year's at a wealthy friend's house in Miami.

they had a giant blow-up TV by the water, and they would stream the fish MSG New Year's. And I was always like, I thought I can't escape this. Everywhere you looked, you could see the screen. But live, are you beginning to understand, I guess, is the question. Yeah. Well, first of all, I should say I had an amazing time. I really had a blast. I've been fully fish-filled. You can't do drugs while you work, though, can you? Come on, you can be honest here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be cool, man. Come on. Sorry that that's not untrue. That is very honest. That is not me trying to sort of not get kicked out of, you know, my fish. I wore a vintage Joy Division shirt that was a gift from a very cool ex-boyfriend. And Trey wore Bodhi. And he looked amazing. Not Trey and Bodhi. It's too good. 100%. Yes. Amanda wore Joy Division shirt, vintage, model zone, and Trey wore bodie. That sounds like our wedding announcement. Okay, so going back to, you said, started in August, going to finish in spring. How many words is this piece going to be? I think it was assigned at 9,000 words, which is long even by New Yorker standards. Okay, okay. I was going to say, I was wondering how much, I mean, like, do you need that much time? It seems like such a long amount of time. Do I need that many words or do I need that many months? I thought you were good at this. Do you need that much time? I guess that many months to write that many words. I mean, I think it's cool and you're going to get the best possible results and your very good brain is going to do the right job with this amount of time and words, but I can't even fathom. working on a story that long yeah it's a fair question and the answer to both is probably no i probably don't need that much time and i probably don't need that many words but uh but i'm going to take them i'm going to take both i mean it's also like the breakdown there is probably like 80 of that time is spent reporting and 20 of that time is spent writing so it's actually complicated profiling bands there's many people involved it's sort of like four i mean well we all we all know fish we all know fish is kind of trey's show so it's nice of you to talk to those other guys that's nice trey and them

But I've heard that, I mean, he strikes me as one of those guys who's in a band that I will never understand, but it's probably fun to hang out with. Because he seems very well-liked and has a good attitude and is kind of down for whatever, which makes me think that that's contributed to the longevity of the band. Oh, certainly, yes. Like a lovely, giving, earnest, thoughtful person. Truly a pleasure to spend time with, and I say that quite sincerely. I mean, I think you can say with some degree of truth about a lot of bands, but it is... extremely profoundly true with fish, that it's just not for everyone. It's not for everyone, and I admire... I think Trey kind of deeply understands that and doesn't give a shit, which is kind of cool. If I had Trey's bank account, I wouldn't give a shit either. I think every real artist like that has to have that same attitude, I think, right? Yeah. Do you think Lars Ulrich feels the same way? Oh, interesting. Lars is a complicated guy. You don't say. You don't say. because he did he must know that not everyone loves his drum tone yeah yeah of course right i mean if you've been in a band for 40 years and this is true of both metallica and fish like you yeah i mean you don't give a fuck at all at that point like you've your legacy is secure you've sort of made the work that you want to make it's resonated for massive amounts of people it succeeded on a scale that most of us could only fantasize about like why would you yeah but but with lars you get the feeling that deep down end of the day He does care. He does give a fuck. Yeah, right. They all care. I mean, they all care. I don't know. I think it's maybe like they don't care about the haters. I think they care about the haters more than the work is the problem. Yeah, I'm talking specifically about the haters. I'm trying to think of what are there pure artists out there who really never did. care about the haters, even deep down at their core. It's human. It's human. You can't. I mean, it's different. I think Chris is right. Well, there was probably a time pre-social media where it was at least harder to find. You know what I mean? At a certain point, if you didn't read the reviews, you didn't see the reviews. You know what I mean? There's no way. Do you guys engage with people who talk shit about your podcast?

No, they usually don't do it to our face, but I try not to... Unless it's Eli Zabar, it doesn't happen too often. I don't really... I honestly don't really care because I find that the people that are most vocally... shitting on us are also listening to every single episode and not fast-forwarding through the ads. So it's kind of like the joke's on you at a certain point. With podcasts, it's so easy to just not listen to it. I mean, it's the same thing with music to an extent, but I think because of the output of a podcast, people get hooked in and they listen to it because they hate it. They want to quit us, but they can't. Because if I listen to a record I don't like, I just stop listening. That's it. I listen to it once. It's like, all right, not for me. That's it. We're moving on. I like that. It's like a toxic relationship. Totally. I'm not going to listen to Bad Bunny. I don't give a shit. I'll listen to it once, check out what it's like, and then I keep it moving. I'm not going to sit here and be like, Bad Bunny sucks. He doesn't suck. It's just not for me. Yeah, but I think a part of you listens to the pod, even if at one point they must have liked us because they do listen, and then we lost them at some point with us saying something bad about something that they loved and they never were able to forgive. But I think a part of them will keep listening in hopes that they will recover and get back in their good graces. And an album is an album, and it's always going to be an album. I'm never going to like Bad Bunny that much. It's always going to be boom, ba-boom, ba-boom. And then him singing, I like to take a picture of you. I want to hug you. It's fine, but I'm not seven years old. No shade. I love Bad Bunny. He's a great guy, great entertainer, great star. Makes music for children only. I want to know, because I feel like you've talked to a lot of people when they're coming up or they're having their moment. We've also, like you've just said, talked to these legends like Phish and Metallica. Do you find that one of those groups is more open to you? I mean, obviously it's going to be based on the individual, but do you think that the kind of naive, like, this is my moment's about to happen artist versus the established, I'm so...

uh, cemented artist is, is willing to open up more? Like, is it, is it, you know what I mean? Like the mindset. Yeah. I think an older artist much, much easier to interview. I think younger artists, I mean, maybe to their, to their credit are careful, you know, they're, they're much more guarded. And I think about what they're presenting. I mean, I mean, they're almost sort of pathologically self-aware, uh, and, and, you know, came of age and like a state of panic about saying the wrong thing and having it all disappear very quickly. So I think that can be a hard thing to, break through to get someone to sort of relax and speak honestly but that's also a function of what we were talking about earlier which is if you just hang around long enough like if you're just there long enough like you get through the first layer of like things people always say in interviews and then you get through the second layer of like the things they sometimes say in interviews and if you're just still there like when they've run out of you know little like yeah to repeat it's that's when you get them to say something kind of interesting or revelatory or compelling Yeah, you just got to be there. Like you just got to wait it out sometimes. No, that's actually I mean, that's what they always say. Also, the you know, you never fill the silence. You know, you let them fill the you let them fill the silence. I'm going to I'll sit here and stare. Yeah. Do you do do you do the silence trick, Amanda? You know, I did it more. I have also worked as a professor and I used to do it more when I taught. Like I had to I had to really train myself to get comfortable with like asking a question of the class and then just sort of lingering in like an unbearable. stony silence yeah what's up with these fucking nerd students who don't respond i i i don't understand it's it like aren't you here to talk to me like if you're the professor isn't that the isn't that the whole where you gain the knowledge right and also we're paying enormous amounts of money i taught at nyu which is a sort of famously oh yeah we're we're hitting we're hitting what is it a hundred a year yeah a hundred a year to listen to you talk some unconscionable amount of money so you would think like

And I always had this problem actually as a disciplinarian. This has followed me into parenthood. But as a professor, it was just like if you don't want to do the work, like if you're going to kind of – if I'm asking you to write a record review and you're getting like an AI to generate a record review, like I don't – like I have just immediately stopped caring. You know, it's like I don't care. I'm yelling at you. I'm not going to like send a strongly worded email. Like I'm just – I'm out. Well, especially NYU when it's like, oh, so this student lives in a nicer apartment than me and drove here in a Maserati and they can't even listen all the way through to this album and give me a couple thousand words. And you're teaching sort of a class that would be considered more fun and elective versus like trigonometry. It's like if you chose this class because you wanted to, if you don't even want to do the thing that you want to do, then I'm not going to waste my time. cultivating your mental garden or whatever right there's no class in the world that could be defined as more elective than writing about music when all is gone and nothing is left we can we can write our opinions on chapel rhone at the very least wow that's i mean i i don't i guess also What is your take on the poptimism thing? Because we've talked about that a lot, and I just find it to be insane that our greatest musical minds are debating Sabrina Carpenter. You know what I mean? I feel like there's better use of our time, but obviously someone like Sabrina has captured the zeitgeist as a big part of the conversation, so it can't be ignored, but there's got to be a better way. Nobody wants to hear John Carmonica talk about... You know, sweetest jazz. That's not going to get the clicks, baby. No, of course, of course. But there's a there's a happy medium, I feel like, between those two things. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think, sadly, Jason is sort of right. It's really hard to get people to read an article about some obscure artists that they have not heard of. Whereas, you know, Sabrina Carpenter, it's like there's going to be an adorable photo and people recognize the name. It's like, oh, my kid listens to that. Like, it's just I don't know. It's just an extension or a function of our sort of grand failing media experiment.

I mean, it's something I think about as a New Yorker a lot because I feel like the pop music coverage at the magazine has shifted quite a bit more mainstream in the last decade. I'm certainly a part of that, but it also feels a little bit like a kind of vague editorial imperative to cover. I don't know. It's like this whole broader thing of the culture sort of winnowing or shrinking in a way where it feels like we all talk about the same thing for 24 hours and then we all talk about a different thing the next day. Howlonggone.com is a website. Yeah, that's literally what. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Hi, Talk House Network listeners. It's your old friend, Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer, and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia Wheeling, West Virginia and Columbus, Ohio plus there are even more dates some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here so please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates we'll see you on the road this summer study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time college students get the best of both worlds

Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. I absolutely agree with you. No, and I recognize, obviously, that it's all about you have to keep the lights on. Like, I'm not. immune immune to that but i guess i just find it to be like like when the the brat chapel ron sabrina carpenter thing was going on it was like wow their motherfuckers are really pulling this out of their ass like every person who could possibly weigh in on it was weighing in on it and i just don't think it was that interesting to be honest it was just a bunch of popular music being popular at the same time I don't know what to say. Yeah, yeah, fair. I mean, when Taylor Swift released a new record last year, most critics didn't get streams of that in advance. I can't speak for all critics. We did not. The magazine did not. I remember having this conversation with my editor, which was like, how fast do we need to process and review this? Do we really have to have something up on the website like 12 hours after release? And your editor's like, it's not up yet? What the fuck? Why are you talking to me? You should be listening. The answer, Amanda, is yes, we do. Absolutely. I mean, she's a she's a great example of someone I couldn't find more boring, like in every way. And that's why I find these deep dives. I'm like, she's not going to give you anything because there's nothing there. She's not going to tell you she's a blood sucking Dracula. Like, so there's nothing there's nothing there. So, like, what do we how more? I mean, I guess if she offers you access, you have to take it because it's so. You know, it's so hard to get. Yeah, but an artist like that is probably hand-selecting the journalist that they... Totally, totally. But that work, I think, too, sometimes with writing, you know, at the New Yorker, the pop music column is like 1,500, 1,700 words. Like, it's a lot of space to make meaning from pop music. Like, I remember reviewing... I reviewed a Troye Sivan record last year and also a Dua Lipa record. Something funny about that, Amanda? Fans of both. Fans of both, especially of Troye, but Dua too. It just...

But it is like it does start to feel a little bit like you're, you know, doing a lot of mental arithmetic to kind of apply. Right. Yeah. I'm listening to – I'm writing about Dua Lipa. It's like, all right, yeah, she used her rhyming dictionary in Mark Ronson. I got it. How many different little garnishes can we put on this grilled cheese sandwich to make it 1,500 words or whatever? Not to use a food term, but – Right, right. No, no, exactly. And it's like, does this even need – does this even need to be reviewed? Can we just give it like a thumbs-up emoji? Well, that's the thing. You're not going to be turning anyone on. to these things is what i'm saying you know it's it's not like it's going to be it's going to do anything either way it's more just entertainment there's no one no one's going to read about taylor swift and decide they want to listen to her music not not so much taylor but if i'm you know some like my friend andre who uh he's one of my oldest friends he's my old roommate but he would subscribe to the new yorker it would come to our apartment And I would be like, this fucking guy, he doesn't even live in New York. He's written The New Yorker. Who does he think he is? And every once in a while, I'd thumb through it. And I'd be like, oh, this is different than the Vice magazine do's and don'ts. It's a little wordy. And I don't know any of these words. But I think there's a lot of people out there who are like, oh, Troye Sivan. OK, Rush is a popper. I'll check it out. You know, like I think Amanda has the power of turning thousands of people on to. an artist like that no i mean i know there's some truth to that because it is gen pop is who you're talking to it's not like it's a it's always they're super informed about something as a new yorker subscriber but it might not be troy savant yes yeah yeah well jason thank you for saying i have any power at all um i really appreciate that i'm gonna feast on that for a while but i yeah yeah i mean that that's another actually kind of a fun thing about being in a place like the new yorker and writing about a thing like pop music it's it's

Yeah, it is gen pop. Like, it's a very broad audience. They're there for, like, the letter from Iraq, you know? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. All over a photo of Dua Lipa, I'd be like, who's that? But, yeah. Damn, Iraq is still hurting, but this Waxahachie sounds pretty interesting, I gotta say. So we've talked about Sabrina's and Taylor's and Ulrich's out there. Of all the people you've interviewed, either for one day or 11 months, Who has starstruck you the hardest? Ooh, Iggy Pop, I think, was one. That was actually the very first profile I wrote for The New Yorker, so I had a little bit of nerves, you know, I think, heading into it. But he was just someone whose music has meant so much to me in my life. And also someone who feels like a kind of surreal figure. And then when he's in front of you, he also sort of looks not real. Yeah, I was about to say, there's a look element to this that really spins it up. There's a collection of skin and flesh and organs here, but is this again? And he lives in Miami, which is kind of... spiritually incongruous with the stooges. There's just so many levels in which I felt like I was hovering a little bit outside of my body for that entire reporting experience. But it was very fucking fun. And we drove around in his Rolls Royce Phantom around Miami. So sick. I remember bobbing in Biscayne Bay and looking over and it's just Iggy Pop. And feeling that just like I was going to barf. I feel like a guy like that, as nerve-wracking as that is, for some reason, I feel like he would be amazing and really open and gracious, which obviously calms the nerves. Yeah, just extraordinarily smart, takes his work very seriously, a brilliant conversationalist, quite funny, shirtless all the time, had read almost everything I'd ever written before I showed up. He was kind of prepared to have a serious talk about his career and his life and his work.

I think someone who's like a visionary and historically has been sort of misunderstood a bit. And he was, I could feel like an eagerness in him to not correct the record exactly, but to, I don't know, like engage in a serious way about the music that he'd made. Yeah. I mean, that's the dream. I mean, for, especially. As a fan, that's exactly what you want from someone like that. The Rolls Royce is merely a bonus. And as a guy who never wears a shirt, you've got some intellectual making up to do in terms of how the public views you, I'm assuming. Amanda, did he wear a shirt while driving? Or is he a Florida man full stop? I believe he was shirtless while driving, but he was wearing a hat. Because we had the top down. And he also got me a hat, which I found very considerate. Hey, you're not the first lady that sat in that passenger seat. You know what I'm saying, Andy? Nor the last. Nor the last. That hat was red. Okay, well, on that topic, sort of, second part of my question, who did you have the biggest crush on that you've spoken to over the years? Oh, my God. I don't know if I can say this. You guys would have to, like... you know, buy me a crotini. I don't know if I can say it. It might be too embarrassing. No, you can say it. Okay, I'll bleep it out. Will that help if I bleep it out? I don't know. We can bleep. I'll bleep it, and then we will only speak obtusely about this person. Okay, well, I should say, first of all, I take my job quite seriously. I'm a professional. I'm not, you know. Nobody doubts that whatsoever, Amanda. I'm a total professional, but he was so hot. All right. There's been a couple. This is the sad truth. This is good. This is good. This is good. What's sad about that? You're talking to some of the most magnetic people in the world. How are you immune? You're a human being. And you're also involved in this kind of very complicated social. transaction that that sort of resembles dating to be honest because yeah totally parachute in you're on this like weird first meeting you're at a nice restaurant like you're you're talking about very intense and personal things there's this purposeful acceleration of intimacy that you have to do you know so it's like you're it's

And then there's also the idea that just attention is love. I am paying so much attention to you when I'm writing a profile of you. I'm thinking about you all the time. There's nothing better than having dinner with a real writer who's just asking you questions, looking you in the eye all night long. I know. This must be how therapists feel. You're just there and it's like, oh, tell me about your mother. When I'm in that place of really kind of going deep with someone, it's like I am really deeply fascinated by them, or I wouldn't be writing the piece to begin with. Yeah, and as you said, these are kind of charismatic millionaires. It don't hurt. I didn't know you had interviewed John Mayer, so I get it. I get it. John's John. Yeah. Okay, wait, can I really tell you someone I had a crush on, and you'll really bleep it out? You have my word, Amanda. I bleep all the time on this podcast. We bleep all the time. We bleep all the time. I'd be in jail if he didn't bleep. You guys are going to make fun of me for this answer, but I did a profile, I guess it was like a year and a half ago, of... Oh, interesting, because he's a legendary stick man, and we know a lot about... This is very interesting. Chris, remember, we're speaking obtusely about this person. It could be... Anybody could be a stick man, Jason. Anybody could be a stick man. Even if they have keyboards. Well, you've just revealed their sex. There's one. I'm pretty aggressively heterosexual. Welcome home. Welcome home again. Welcome home again. Okay. I get it. I get it. I understand that. I mean, I think he's a pretty compelling figure overall because there's also like a little bit of mystery to him, especially. Before, you know, you go and do a deep dive, there's a lot of mystery there. And it's like, is this completely and like a little sneaky, like in a way that I sort of liked and and very funny and very smart. And I think it was so intriguing. Somebody like that is really fun to write about because they're strategic and they're savvy. And you're sort of like, well, all right, is this you know what? Like it just it's a little bit of a game. And I think that, you know. OK, well, you said when you were when you were listing favorable attributes about.

this person, the first thing you said was sneaky. And I would like you to expand on that more. Usually the women that I've tangled with in my life don't love that. Call me sneaky in a, in a, in a negative light. So I'd like to hear more, please. Yeah. Well, I think I like the challenge of that. Like I like, I like somebody where I don't really, I mean, I don't want to sound like a sociopath. I, um, or like someone who just enjoys. self-flagellation but i like not really knowing what is happening there we go no that's common that's common that's common when he so you're saying when he comes home and he smells like the strip club but he told you he was at top golf with the homies yeah you like that that's exciting for me so most women are like what are we and you're like what are we no that that's like a problem give me nothing daddy i'm the yeah i uh that outsmarts me a little bit. I like somebody that feels a little unreachable and a little... I'm running to catch up. You're not alone. You're not alone in this world. Many such cases. Yeah, this is really run-of-the-mill to some extent. Don't worry. You're not revealing anything that hasn't been revealed before. Don't say that, Chris. You're a unique chick, Amanda. You're not like all the other ones. No, I'm not saying you're not a unique chick. I'm just saying this trait is... I think that a lot of men and women would relate. Yeah, keep your toes. That's not... That's not weird. I mean, that happens on this podcast, too. You know, if somebody's sneaky, we're obviously, our ears perk up. You know, you're going to try to dodge us. We're sneaky. I'm not sneaky. I'm wearing mine. Thank you for your honest reveal, Amanda, by the way. I appreciate it. For trusting us. Keep love and admiration and apparently attraction as well. Yeah. I'm into it. I just never have heard. I've never heard sneaky as positive. That's what I love about this. I always think of that in a negative light, but you've reframed it. I already regret saying it. I regret all the tape. Was it Duff McKagan? Am I remembering that from a recent pod? One of you revealed that Duff McKagan was like, delete the tape. I don't want.

Was it him? Yeah, Duff McKay. On our listener mailbag episode, somebody asked. Because we said it at live shows and alluded to it before. But yeah, his publicist called me when the podcast was done. It was just kind of like... I'm not going to ask you to not post this, but it would be good if you didn't. I was like, hey, it's good for us, too, because he sucks, so it's all gravy. It turns out we wanted to talk about this band called Guns N' Roses instead of his 17th solo project. I think mostly now, because we've been doing this long enough, if the person doesn't know about us or a friend hasn't done it or the publicist hasn't prepped them, then... usually they can snap into it and see what's going on pretty quick if they're savvy. And occasionally that is not the case. And I'm sure you deal with this. I mean, I just feel like there may be coming into a New Yorker interview. I feel like for some people it could feel like they have to be serious. You know what I mean? Which, which can be out of character depending on who you are. Yeah. I think that's very true. I think there is some degree of, of nerves and you know, these pieces are long and I think they're definitive and there's yeah. is why it's fun talking as i was saying earlier it's why it's fun talking to older artists who i think are just less i don't know it's just like less at stake somehow you know like it's the career is already established like the money's in the bank like they're yeah totally more ready to have fun and say weird you know yeah i mean they also they do not care i mean that happens here too it's like when somebody's a little older especially if they're older and gay they don't give a shit they will say anything they don't care who their grandkid can catch a stray and they're not losing sleep over it it's impressive it really is cool yeah if you say survive the aids crisis you are uncancelable in our eyes you yeah you can do whatever you want that's a open invitation to anyone to come on slur away mama it's beautiful Sorry, you were saying something, Amanda? Didn't mean to step on you? Oh, I was saying I do think a great failure of mine as a reporter is I do – if I spend a lot of time with someone and I like them and we develop a rapport and an affinity, I will protect them later on. I think other writers are probably a little bit better at this job than I am.

We'll sort of see someone saying something maybe they shouldn't have said or phrasing something in a sort of ungenerous or unkind way. And we'll kind of seize upon that as an opportunity. And I say this not to be self-aggrandizing. I honestly find it to be a sort of repertorial weakness for me. I will have this sort of maternal thing of like just, you know, I won't use the quote like I will. Loyal to a fault. Yeah. I just, I just, I just think that at a certain point, like you have to weigh the options of like, does including this actually make a difference or does it just feel salacious for salacious sake or, or incriminating for incriminate? You know what I mean? Like, does this actually add to the story I'm trying to write? And if it doesn't, yeah, leave it out. But you're right. Most people will include it. Just include it. Yeah. Do you guys, will you bleep? You're, you're friends of the friends of the friends. You take care of guests. Yeah. I mean, we're not here to, we're not page six. We're not trying to gotcha. We're trying to have fun. And if, if, if it's not fun, then it can get, it's the cutting room floor based on how Jason's feeling that day. You know, that's just, I don't, there's no reason to like, no one's coming on. Sometimes it's a chop. No one's coming on How Long Gone to, like, come out of the closet. You know what I mean? We're not the New York Times. Like, they're already gay when they get here. They come fully formed with all their holes. And sometimes, I've done interviews in the past where someone will say something I think is incredibly innocuous. In fact, I did an interview with Justin Vernon, Bon Iver, for the New Yorker Radio Hour a couple months back. And we talked just a little, just very briefly. I was very actually... very deliberately trying to avoid talking to him about taylor swift because it just didn't that that collaboration did not interest me that much uh but i did ask him one question about it and he gave one quote that just seemed so sort of innocent and anodyne and boring about how like he thought that if they had been in high school together they would have been friends in high school like it's something i would never have used in a story but because it was a radio got aired and it got like

aggregated into the news cycle. There was a People magazine story about Justin Vernon saying a New Yorker that he would have been friends with Taylor Swift in high school. And you're like, and I got the Peabody for that. What did you know? That's an amazing example of something so stupid that if it includes Taylor Swift's name, it's still front page. That's unbelievable. Yeah, I could not believe it. And if there was a video camera turned on for it? Cha-ching. I'm ready for Big Vernon to come on How Long Gone, and we have a lot of friends in common, but I feel like it might never happen, because I'm like a big fan. Jason is too. I really love it. I'll do mushrooms if I have to. Whatever it takes. We can go to the compound in Wisconsin and really get into it. He's a great interview. He also has a lovely voice. He has this very deep, very still, very beautiful voice. In fact, after I did that podcast piece, I kept getting people texting me and being like, damn, that guy's voice. No crush on him, huh? You guys are just bros? Full, of course. absolute, like, definitely fresh on Justin. Who does not? Amanda said, let me be clear. I'm merely, what can I do? What can I do? Okay, well, speaking of social media virality, on the verge of TikTok potentially shutting down a different Chinese app taking its place, and I was thinking earlier today, you know, people talk about how social media is a drug. And if TikTok is outlawed, will underground illegal social media platforms pop up the same way? Kazaa and Napster and other, you know, I guess the first music-based social media, you know, file sharing, like I would go on Pitchfork and read a review of adult with a period after the end and then go download an Electroclash 7-inch that's been digitized, you know, and that was... underground and real and illegal what do you what do you think the future of how tiktok has influenced music is going to change now that's an interesting question that i don't i wish i had a better answer for i hadn't thought of the idea that it could kind of go underground in a way that might be sort of generative and interesting i don't know well don't worry it won't but i like where jason's head's at

I like where Jason said that. That's the kind of thinker that he is, and that's why we love him. But I think it'll just be another Chinese company coming up with the exact same thing and people going. But I think if the only way for anything else to work is for TikTok to truly be banned, like look at Blue Sky. That's dork shit. No one's really going over there. Like threads bombed. You know what I mean? Because Twitter still exists. And that's the original. And I think that's the only reason those things even had a chance. Yeah. You know, if Twitter fully went away. I get so angry when I accidentally click on a threads link. I'm just like, oh, I feel like I've been violated. It's the fucking worst. I literally look at it confused every time. Like, oh, fuck, it's threads. I will say. Start putting soap in my eyes. Let's say thinking about like. soul seek and lime wire and those like early peer to peer like music whatever like download you know illegal download services i feel like i went through a period early on in my career of actively having to like correct in my mind for things that i downloaded on soul seek that were misnamed like mislabeled like i would think i was listening to like elliot smith and it was actually like a nick drake like really really before I humiliated myself. It's the same shit. Two sad guys that are dead. Yeah, it's a lot easier when you download the Elliot Smith and it's just clearly a Pitbull song. The Nick Drake and Elliot Smith, you're like, damn. There are some similarities. I have a funny nostalgia for the lawlessness of those platforms. They were just... It's all so professional now. I talked to Liz Pelley about her new book for my GQ column and we were talking about all that stuff and it's just so crazy how if you're a certain age group downloading music illegally on your parents' you know, desktop computer is a formative memory that we all share. It's like a deep, like it's the way I learned about so much music that I would have never bought. You know what I mean? But if you can just type it in and listen to it, you know, and then you own it on top of that, it's not, you know, it's, it was, it's crazy to think about.

how educational it was yeah oh my god dial up like desktop in the kitchen like well because you yeah because you also that was that was to keep men hard to jack off yeah that's the only reason the desktop that's the whole thing that's the whole thing we're putting jack protection going down for a little midnight snack but it's interesting that you had to know what to type in you know that's the big differentiator and that's why we were talking about obviously because the playlist thing like the ghost artists and all the shit that she's talking about but it's a totally different experience for your brain to type it in versus being served to you by a computer. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, she's extraordinary, by the way, and that book is, yeah, she's just, I think, an incredible reporter. It's very cool that you talk to her. Yeah, no, I think, I don't know, man, I'm very annoying. Like, I have all these records, and I don't, I just, I don't like streaming, and I don't really use Spotify, and I can't, like, that idea of just, I don't know, like the relentlessness of it, the sort of tyranny or like the paralysis of choice. I don't know. I just don't like it. I like having like a finite amount of music that I have to choose from. You know what? I don't like it. Okay. Well, what about how would you be different or would you adopt more of a Spotify streaming lifestyle if you didn't get every single album sent to you for free with your job? If you were just a random person who didn't have access to. all this music yeah fair question I uh I would like thank you for checking my privilege Jason um of course you can't download these files from our you know you have to stream them with a watermark so you're not able to put them on your USB and DJ them in the club but you know the fact that no one has invented a way to do that sort of servicing of album promo through Spotify or Apple music is insane to me. The fact that it's all these ugly ass third parties, I complain about all the time. Like you can't listen to on your phone. You can't, it's crazy. They haven't worked together to like Spotify and the labels work together all the time. You know, they could probably have a conversation about it. Yeah. I'm glad you complain about it too, because I also complain. And then, and then.

feel like a dick for complaining about all my free music but those platforms are so glitchy and and you would think the artist too it's like you're presenting your work for the first time to a critic who's going to write a serious piece about your art and it's like the link keeps expiring or like you can't the tracks don't flow into one another or like it's sounds awful or like what yeah i just It's insane. You can't listen to them in the car or going for a walk. When I would get something that I really liked and I'd be like, you want me to download the Disco AC app? Are you out of your fucking mind? There's no way I'm doing that. There's no way. It just seems like such an easy, low-hanging fruit to figure out how to do that with a password or something. It just doesn't seem that hard. Speaking of listening to music on the go, passively, car, commuting, walking, gym, whatever, Do you feel like you oscillate between large periods where you only listen to music, get sick of music, and then you go into podcasts full on and you only listen to pods for that week and then you get sick of it and go back to music? Do you do or do you have like a healthy mix of both with a secret third thing, audiobooks? Well, I say this not as kind of idle flattery. I listen to How Long Gone. I listen to almost no other podcasts. Podcasts don't interest me that much. Audiobooks interest me not at all. I listen to music almost all the time, almost exclusively. You don't listen to it while you write, except for your lo-fi beats to study to, of course. Yeah, well, of course. No, I like a kind of dead silence when I'm working. Okay, so hold on, hold on, you damn serial killer. So you're telling me you're sitting at that desk, laptop open, dead silence, just staring off into the beautiful rolling hills of the Hudson Valley? Just the sound of a wood fire crackling? Yes, yes. I have a fireplace in my office, in my grandma house. Yes. Yeah, that's how I like to work. Damn, this is cool. You just milk the cow, and then you kind of sit down and get to work. I like that. I churn some butter for my toast, and yeah, crank up the generator. This is hand churned. That's right, this is hand churned. Pick up a few bushels of apples. Okay, well, have you tried to write to music, and was there a genre that almost got there?

Modern, classical, music, concrete, anything? I listen to the thing I'm writing about while I'm writing about it. And like on a good day, maybe sort of internalize some of the sort of rhythm or the movement or the phrasing of the music and that ideally kind of ekes its way into the prose. I'm sorry, this is very pretentious. I'm giving a craft talk. That's what I do too when my producers send me beats. I kind of flow with them all day until I kind of feel something and then I start writing. It's the same idea. That's super organic. I love that. Super organic. Okay, well, Amanda, what about, do you ever have time to get a little poetry done? Anything that's not on the clock, you know? I mean, my contract at The New Yorker, I have to say, is fairly unforgiving. I am also a single parent to a very young child, so my time is super limited. I'm also very busy having crushes on all the people that I write about. There's not much time left over to work on my novella. There's only so much time in the day. There's only so much time that I do want to write another book. I really do. I miss that. I miss like the I mean, I'm writing 9000 magazine articles, but I miss the sort of sustained focus of like a whole ass book. So, yeah, sure. Sure. So what do you do? What do you do to unwind up there? Are you going to the local market for some greens? Like what what do you do in the Hudson Valley if you're not raising a farm? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Allison Roman ass. I am. I mean. kind of an introvert like i i like being home amongst my uh you know my tchotchkes i heard someone refer to tchotchkes recently as tchotch like amongst my tchotch and i'm sort of trying to adopt i'm trying to sort of slide that into the lexicon uh you know i will say there's like especially post-covid um an enormous amount of people that moved to this area from you know williamsburg or cobble hill there was a sort of great migration uh so it's it's very to go get like a $9 cup of coffee with like someone who works at, you know, Vanity Fair. Like that's not impossible to do around here. There's other, you know, people. I love the idea. I love the idea of you saying, oh yeah, what do I do my time off? Well, I try to get a cup of coffee with somebody from Vanity Fair if I can. And then just kind of back home, you know, back home to the computer. And I just live a modest level. Go get a $24 pancake from Cafe Mutton and then just come back to my chotch. Yeah, my castle of chotch.

I don't know. I like grandma stuff. As you've noticed, I have a garden. I like being outside. I like all that kind of stuff. Honestly, it sounds pretty... Look, it's all shit I hate, but it sounds good for you, and I like that. Yeah, this sounds like when we had Simon Rex on the podcast and he moved to Joshua Tree, and he was, I think, less chotch, more vagina for him, but... You know, kind of living a very similar existence, but just more of a desert community. It's a dry heat over there. I will say the difference is he had to do the podcast from his Tesla at a Starbucks because he doesn't have Wi-Fi and you're coming through clear. So that is a nice difference. That's a very nice difference. Pretty civilized up here, I have to say. an hour and whatever hour and 10 minutes from the city like it's not it's very no it's very it's very civilized to the point where that's chill because i went up there recently too and i hadn't been in a long time and it's it's definitely not for me but as you get older you see the appeal of it more you know and it's also as it gets more and more basically like fucking cobble hill with a little more tree It's like, why would you not go there if that's what you're searching for? Yeah, completely. I mean, I did 17 years in Brooklyn, and I think I was just ready for a change. And I don't know if I'll be here forever, but it has been nice. Where are you from originally? I'm from here. So I have some Hudson Valley bona fides. I grew up like 20 minutes from where I grew up. Oh, okay, okay. So you returned to the roost. It's your Orange County. Exactly, yeah. When Jason moved back to Huntington Beach, this podcast might cease to exist, but I'm glad that you're able to. Just because of the waves, it's so good there. He's not going to have a lot of time. Yeah, a lot of canceled chats. A lot of canceled chats. Sorry, bro. It's really pumping today. I am sorry. Yeah. I mean, luckily for me this week, I've been able to blame all of my whoopsies on the fire, even though it hasn't really affected me at all. It's a great blanket excuse. Are you okay out there? Yeah, I'm fine. Knock on wood. All is well. We're expecting a wind, such a wind in the next day or two. But, you know, other than that, it's pretty business. All right. All right. Calm down, Bob Dylan. You got to relax.

Winds out of the south by southwest, 17 knots. Jason famously, Jason's right knee starts to twitch when the wind picks up. So he's kind of a nice weather vane. He's a weather vane. Get the go bag. Well, speaking of Bob Dylan and cinema, you started out as a film critic many moons ago, I think. Thoughts on Timmy? And did we see The Brutalist? And did you enjoy the intermission? I have not. I have not seen either of those films. Actually, I feel sort of embarrassed to admit. I have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder about the Dylan movie for reasons I cannot explain and feel some shame about. I just don't want to go see it. Even though I love a formative actor in my life. Yeah, Chris was like, excuse me. Welcome to the club. I have no interest. I mean, I like Bob. I told Jason this, but my wife and I were driving to Orange County and I had seen a great meme about Blood on the Track, so I put it on. And I was like, damn, this shit really does slap. But listening to it and being reminded that it's good did not make me want to see the movie in any way. Yeah, no, I'm an obsessive Dylan fan. He's my favorite artist of all time. I've written quite a bit. Wait, hold on. You've heard Third Eye Blind though, right? New Yorker sent me to cover. This was before I was writing exclusively about music. The New Yorker sent me to cover the Republican National Convention. The first year Trump was nominated. And Third Eye Blind was playing that year at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Had been like booked to do this event. And I think they were angry that it was. I don't know what. It was like clearly there had been some miscommunication on the team. And they showed up and were. It was like infamous. just like meltdown on stage. Steven, Steven Jenkins and Rick Owens being like yelling at his manager for them playing a black rifle coffee rally during, during the, he's like, this is not what the fuck happened. How did this happen? Uh, anyway, all my respects to third and blind. Um, they're my second favorite artists of all time. Okay. Just under Dylan. But yeah, but my, my abiding in deep love and fascination with Bob Dylan has, has still not made me want to see this movie. And I think Timmy Chalamet is.

cool i like him he's doing the he's doing the greatest he's it's the greatest press tour that's maybe ever existed it's made me like him more than i could ever have imagined and i still don't want to see any of his movies Irby, like post-Gosling as Ken, like he sort of laid the groundwork. He was like, this is how you do it. This is how you like go out on kind of a wacky press tour and you're sort of charismatic and funny. I just think I just think Timothee Chalamet was able to speak to like every generation somehow. You know what I mean? Like whether it was a little bee thing or, you know, like like that speaks to someone, this speaks to someone. He rode a lime bike onto the red carpet last night. Like it's just. it's but but it's also like he's like a 28 year old like he's i think it feels real yeah you know like being all over the place like ryan ryan gosling was a little too smoldering and like had that band that he took kind of seriously to me yeah it was like all a little bit serious to me gosling he's he did a good job because his team did a good job of telling him what to do and how to do it i think with timmy they're just like bro i don't know what's going on just do whatever you want and he's like really you mean it okay i'm gonna ride a lime bike i mean ride a city bike on the red carpet, and everything he does worked. But I think to tie it all up, after speaking to Chris, a music lover, you, a music lover, and many other people who I won't go named, I think people who really love music and or make music don't like musicals. Yeah, I don't ever need to see a musical. That being said, I've talked to a lot of people who love Bob Dylan that did like the movie. But I don't I don't know. I just I mean, I'll see it, of course, eventually. I'm just not going to make an effort. But it's been it's been Delta one. It's been a very interesting kind of it's been an interesting. from a press perspective more to me than like the art like what he that's the real takeaway for me is how good he was as as a as a shiller for the movie yeah yeah yeah yeah totally i wonder too if my own kind of reticence or my reluctance to engage with this film has to do because we're all sort of around the same age and i think like i came of age in this moment where like you would get pissed when something you liked got popular like that was somehow

Of course. And betrayal of everything. Jason remembers when 18 Visions got signed to a major label. That put him into a tailspin. Too obscure, bro. Too obscure. Oh, that was the point. That was the point. um well yeah we all we all have it's a it's a tale as old as time but yeah i mean it's the same as just dylan was not hugely famously you know whatever uh renowned before this but i did an interview recently where i was talking about a dylan song and i brought it up and someone was like oh that's quite timely and for some reason i was like what like what and it took me a minute to put it together that like dylan is suddenly very front and center in the zeitgeist that's really dylan is killing it right now bro he's all over my feet Bob Dylan's the number one thing on reels right now, I noticed this morning. It's crazy. I guess it's a bad thing that we love the press and marketing rollout more so than the thing itself. That's how, you know, our brain has been rotted. Well, no, that to me is very timely. That, to me, is more timely than anything. It means that we're cultured and different. We actually like watching the commercials on the Super Bowl more than the football. You know, it's kind of different. Oh, God. All right, Amanda. Not to get my Don Draper on. All right, Amanda, thank you. Thank you. We really appreciate it. This feels overdue. We look forward to reading the fish piece in 2038. I'm sure it's going to be a doozy. All right, thank you guys so much. I've seen love go by my door. It's never been this close before. Never been so easy or so slow. I've been shooting in the dark too long. When something's not right, it's wrong. You're going to make me loads when you go. Dragon clouds so high above, I've only known careless love. Relax and let Kroger Delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items. Then carefully pack your order in our refrigerated trucks. And our cool trucks keep your food fresh right to your door. Fresh groceries your way with Kroger Delivery. And right now, you can save $20 on your first delivery order. Kroger. Fresh for everyone.