052. - Kevin Griffin

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

Hello. Okay, TJ. How are you doing? I'm doing just great. I was doing a little quick cooking before our pod started up. Oh, what was Chef TJ whipping? I was whipping up just a small Korean banchan side dish that's kind of like a glazed potato type of situation. It'll be a little bit sweet, salty, sour kind of vibe with some kind of fried potatoes that are then glazed with some sesame seeds and some green onion to finish. Damn, sounds pretty nutty. Sounds a little nutty. I mean, it's a pretty simple dish, but you and I are both visiting our friend Sam for a little outdoor social distance backyard hang, and he's making Korean food. And we were talking before, you were telling me the veggies need to be hitting today for you as a known vegetarian. It's tough going in the world of Korean barbecued meats for you. And I was explaining to you that I can't step on our host's menu. I don't. I consider you to be my personal chef, so wherever I'm going, the dishes should reflect my dietary restrictions. I don't understand what's confusing about that. Okay, now I understand. It's sort of like the phrase diplomatic immunity could be used here where certain rules and laws and restrictions do not apply to me as your personal caretaker and chef. Exactly. You get a pass. You can say and do as you please. I'm able to think outside the bun when it comes to making his illustrious one pleased. I will stop at nothing. Last night, I went to another outdoor social distance birthday celebration. The menu was not catered to me, obviously, because it wasn't my birthday. I ended up eating some delicious homemade bread that was hitting so hard I couldn't believe it. I hadn't had something that good in a while. Jake had made a full paella.

But the motherfucker, I mean, he had squid, he had chicken, he had everything in it. It was like the full mati. He had the deluxe meat lovers paella. Exactly. So I was left with some extremely good homemade bread and like tomatoes that were incredibly fresh. I don't usually like tomatoes, but they were so good I couldn't help myself. What kind of tomatoes are these? Just regular sliced red tomatoes, but they were fantastic? Yeah, I think so. It wasn't a cherry tomato. No, no, this was a fat boy. Got it, got it. Well, I picked up some tomatoes today, and I'll bring a handful for you later just to eat them raw dog. That's the thing. I'm not a raw dog tomato guy, but it felt good last night. It felt like a summer meal. Well, much like your unreal chocolates, these are tomatoes that you can truly just pop like candy. Wow. Mother Nature's Skittle. Where did you obtain these? At the Gatwater Farmer's Market? No, no, no, no. I went to Cookbook. Oh, you went for the real white people shit? Yeah, I mean, because I used to go to the Farmer's Market all the time in Atwater Village. It was my neighborhood spot. I would walk there from my house, ride my bike there. It was a whole vibe. And then, you know, it got too blown up. The spot, it was way too blown. And then you combine that with... with the coronavirus, and it's fucked up. There's a line of 50 people baking in the sun just to go walk around and fucking touch kumquats. Oh, it's like, oh, I didn't think about that. It's a big-ass line just to get into the farmer's market. I can't be bothered. That farmer's market is a scene. And it's one that I don't love, to be honest with you. It used to be a scene that I did love, but it was too much of a show-out scenario for you. You don't want to go to the farmer's market and have somebody look you up and down because of your outfit choices, I'm assuming. Well, I mean, people in L.A. can't dress, so they're looking at me to get tips, I would imagine. So that doesn't really bother me. A beacon of light. The scene is just too strollery.

you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah too many fucking goddamn breeders am i right brother exactly and they're like who's this little fucking penny loafer wearing city slicker coming through over here messing up with with brylene's teething schedule i don't know who freaking drees van whatever is i like that you've made outwater residents southern somehow Atwater's never given me that vibe. I like where you're going. Look, you try doing some improv work that involves the word city slicker and not reducing your lingo into a southern drawl. That's true. I've taken a break. I've taken a break from my comedy practice while I've been here. Damn, the jokes is on ice. I wish I knew what that felt like. Well, I'm still working on a type 15, but without a special on deck, it's like, what's the point? Right, right, right. You can't just sit around waiting for D'Elia to call you up to the big leagues. You still got to be. Exactly. As executive producer, Chris D'Elia, my comedy special, it's been put on ice. Damn, bro. For the obvious reasons. But yeah, I was excited to have a nice meal last night. It really hit for me to do that. I haven't done that in a while. Where the bros are all together? Well, I feel very blessed. I just feel like I have friends that can really cook their asses off. And I can't do anything. So I just show up. I mean, besides being the life of the party. I show up by your wine that you chose for me to bring went over very well. Is that right? Yeah, Emil said to me, he goes, did you tell them you were buying wine for me? I was like, bitch, what do you mean? He's like, oh, I go there a lot. They know me. So I thought maybe they suggested these based on that. I was like, damn, TJ really got the sixth sense for the fucking grapes.

You probably didn't tell Emil that I picked it out, though. Yes, I did. Okay, good. Because I still haven't earned his respect in the game, and every day I toil away at it. So this will help me out. Well, as a great guest, you have to come with a gift, and I would never... wade into these uncharted waters of wine dorkery myself. So I have to call in a pinch hitter. And you were that person. You really came through. I learned all of that from the strategist. You can't show up empty-handed. If you have no skills or trade to trade, then you show up with a bomb-ass natty wine. Exactly. I had a great curbside experience at Domain. Shout out to Domain. I also told the proprietor that I don't know what I'm talking about. And then she said, you know, okay. But then I list off all these wines and she's like, it sounds like you know what you're talking about. I was like, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. The whole key to my shit is knowing, is sounding like I know what I'm talking about. That's my whole shit. Yeah, man. That's sort of what you build and base your entire business and career off of. Thank you, Jason, for noticing that as a friend and co-worker. I'm glad that you recognize that I'm the leader of this group. Not 100% a compliment, but you did twist it that way very nicely. Well, of course. I know what you're trying to do, and I'm able to dip and dodge, as they say. Yeah, dip and dodge, not unlike your antics on and off the tennis court. I saw you said you played this morning. Is that right? I did play this morning. It was a little toasty out there, bro. Are we not doing mask off yet? No, I don't do mask off. In my opinion, if you're going to go mask off, and unfortunately mask now, people think actual masks. We're talking about shirts. Mask off in terms of cis male lingo means taking your shirt off during a sporting activity.

I wouldn't do that unless I was in absolutely camera-ready shape. I thought you were going to say I wouldn't do that unless it was a life-or-death situation like I was in the Zac Efron Netflix travel show in some crazy jungle somewhere where it was either the shirt or your life. But are you ever going to be camera-ready physique enough? I mean, in my opinion, probably not. Well, then let's get you out of that shirt, big fella. Well, first of all, call me big fella, bitch. I think that if Zac Efron lost a limb in the jungle and I had to give him a tourniquet, I would save Zac Efron's life with a graphic t-shirt. Right, right, right. And then his last words through his last breath are like... Yeah, well, if I end up living, you should come by the house. I can probably give you a couple moves to kind of fill that chest out a little bit. And then it's like... No, I'd be like... Let me get a bump. Like, hey, I can get you some of these 500 milligram ibuprofen for that pain. Get up! Get away! I would sacrifice my well-being for Zac Efron. He's given more to this world than I have. Goddamn right. I didn't even watch High School Musical, but I can only assume that it's that good based on the reviews and kind of its staying power in the marketplace. Yeah, I mean, it's still constantly at the top of everyone's must-watch list, even in 2020. A must watch, which I'll add to my list, which is at this point extremely long. The apartment doesn't have a TV, and I just can't watch it on my laptop. I just can't do it. Damn, no TV movement? That sounds deal-breaker-esque for CB. Is it worth your trouble to just go cop at Best Buy and then return? That's a great idea.

A lot of places don't have TVs. Instead of a flat screen, we've included a vintage typewriter in case inspiration strikes you. Yeah, we have some fake books on the shelf if you want to flip through those. I don't understand why. It's very common. I don't know. We have this thing called vinyl. Have you ever heard of fucking that? Just sit down and listen to music the right way, okay? Yeah, if you could just listen to this selection of records we found at Urban Outfitters, we'd really appreciate it. We've got that classic arcade fire on Gatefold if you really want to jam out. I love the cover of this one. Rumors by Flatwood Mac? Flatwood Mac. Oh, this is a cool cover. That would be appropriate. I think that's a classic LA record. You put that on and then you light up your CBD and then you just do a couple twirls around the room and you're like, oh yeah. I'm officially on vacation now. If I'm listening to Stevie Nicks in any form, I'm wearing my witch costume, my flowing skirt. So a few spins would work for that, I think. It would be nice. And you're also back on the bundle, as it were, if you're blasting some Stevie hard body. Yeah, exactly. It's a shame that you didn't make it far enough into the world of cocaine. to catch up to everyone calling it a bundle. It's a, it's a great slang and a shame that you're not unable to use it. There's a couple other things I think that I would have done. It would have been cool if I would have gotten deeper into it, but that's like a whole other podcast, I think. Um, okay. You know, or, or podcast therapy session, whatever you want to call it. Well, I mean, I think you've had a friend blow coke up your ass. I haven't. So it's a little bit, you know, I'm, I'm just playing catch up, Jason. All right. All right. Uh, listen, listen to more happy hardcore and that could happen to you.

Oh, my God. On that note. Speaking of EDM, let's bring our guest on. We do have a guest today. He is well known in the music business. Unfortunately, I don't know if he gets the respect he deserves in the EDM community, but that could change today. Yeah, that stops now. His name is Kevin Griffin. He is the singer and songwriter of a band called Better Than Ezra that had some big smashes in the late 90s. Their single, Good, was... Fucking number one for seven weeks, baby. We love to hear that. But anyway, he also, he's gone on to be a pretty big songwriter. He lives in Nashville. He's written for, you know, Train, Blondie, James Blunt, Taylor Swift covered his shit. He's kind of everywhere. He has a festival he does in Nashville that's pretty big. And he also just did this insane, like, fundraiser for COVID that raised, like, 40 grand on, like, Facebook Live or some shit, which is very interesting. But... You know, we're going to talk to him about my favorite era. So sit back and buckle up, losers. 90s Hive, get your old headphones ready. Put your flannel on and settle in. All right. Wonderful. Let's give him a jingle. All right. All right. This episode of How Long Gone has brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy, but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts.

Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot. Because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code

how long taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Damn, are you just sipping a fountain soda in the studio right now? After we went to go get my wife's car that was brought over from L.A., my kids were like, McDonald's! It was an onslaught. I was outnumbered. You know when you go, I don't know if you have kids. Actually, this is a kid-free podcast until you joined us. Well, when you have kids, you end up reluctantly taking them to someplace they haven't been in a while, and then you indulge more than they do. Why don't you walk us through your Mickey D's order, Keb? McDonald's, I was pretty restrained. The kids went hog wild. I just did a large, supersized meat, french fry.

And then I was prudent, and I decided to wait until after this podcast and eat at home. Oh, eat a real meal. Okay, I see. So you couldn't resist the temptation of the fries? The fries. The fries have always been my weakness. But also, since you are a seasoned vocalist, you know how certain meals might affect your phlegm and your vocal range and tone, and you can't really compromise that. Well, it's funny you ask that. I've been known as being a student of different types of cooking oils. And McDonald's uses a proprietary canola milk particulate blend. Ooh. Really? I'm just talking. Damn, I was about to say, damn. It actually causes the flu to be quite viscous. I was one million percent believing you. Yeah, same. People are into weird shit. You know what I mean? Whatever it takes. First question, though. How tall are you? I'm 6'4". Oh, hell yeah. Okay, see, we have an interesting ongoing theme on this podcast of tall men only. You can tell them it only. I am also 6'4". Jason, my co-host, Jason, tell them how tall you are. 6'9". 6'9". For real? Yes. For real. I can barely get these headphones on. That's insane. That's insane. Is it weird that I've still got my video on? No, no, no. It's fine. A lot of people do it. It is weird that you don't have a shirt on, but that's okay. You know what, man? I'm in Los Angeles for a month. I'm trying to live the Los Angeles lifestyle as best I can. Which is shirtless. We've been trying to get Chris out of that shirt all day, and he's reluctant. He doesn't think his body is good enough, and I'm telling him, you know what, Chris? It is.

Well, indoor amongst friends I think is different than, you know, outside jogging or something. I think that's a little – I want to have a shirt made for when I go running that says put your shirt back on. Look, I think that running – No, no. It's usually just the guy jogging or hiking you don't want to have with your shirt off. It's like – Yeah, it's like whenever you see some expose on swingers clubs on HBO or something. It's never the people you want to swing with. It's not the people you want to be swinging. I mean, it'd be different if they were more attractive. I'm not saying I support that. I'm very against the swingers movement. But it's always just some people in the 60s who've discovered their sexuality or the beauty of their bodies. And I would rather not. Watch that. Anyhow, I don't know how we got there. So are you a runner? Are you a runner, Kevin? I do run. Also, Chris, are you cutting your fingernails right now? No, no, no. That's me. That's a carabiner I've got. Oh. Well, you know. It's a prop he brings on for a sound effect thing. Just let him get through his process, Jason. But yes. He does his own click track. He does it all, man. I'm a runner in that I don't do long distances. I do like a couple of miles three or four times a week, and then I kind of go straight into just doing some other exercises, a little bit of weights and pull-ups and sit-ups. It's all been at home. I've quit going to the gym because of the Rona. as it were. Do you have like a proper home gym? You know, I've taken a part of my garage and I ordered a really nice pull-up. kind of dip, pull-up dip station, I guess it's called, you know? Yeah, of course. And most of them are really crappy that you buy online, but I did my due diligence and I found this one that looks like you could see it in a gym. And you can do all these, depending on how inventive you are, you can do all these different types of pull-ups, dips, and these kind of incline push-ups. And then I got a jump rope, a little block that I do, you know, box jumps on.

Which is ridiculous. It's this 60-pound weighted foam block. that I've overpaid for online. People are like, what is that? I'm like, it's a weighted foam block for box jumps. They go, this is insanity. You paid money for this? I'm like, yeah. They go, it's amazing, but I didn't even know a product like this existed. You know it's free to just jump on anything if you want to, right? You would think, but this is engineered to enhance the box jumping experience. I'm familiar with that. and I do think it's nicer on the knees for the landing. It's better on the knees, and then it tells you, you know, put it this way, and it's a 30-inch box jump. Oh, I see, I see. Did you ever think as a young, hot rock star you would be hanging out in your 40s and just jumping on stuff as a way of maintaining your ultimate physique? You know, I have jumped on top of a lot of people to get to the... On the backs of others, sure. On the backs of others, the shoulders of others. I've crushed other people to get my taste of glory. That's the goddamn American way, brother. Now, during the heyday when you were touring, like seriously, were you exercising at all on tour? Because I know it's a hard thing for people to do. I've always been pretty – I've always taken – well, I've always kind of exercised even on tour. But, you know, there were times. When you're drinking, you're in your 20s and 30s, and it's more of a party. We were no strangers to a really good time, but we always took care of ourselves to an extent until you don't. For me, it was like finally at some point I was like, you know, I'm just going to quit drinking. So I kind of quit everything. Are you sober? I am a sober guy. How long?

uh august 10th but who's counting will be six years okay nice i'm like three and a half so hey we don't have to we don't have to go deep i just you know i think that's the whole that's a whole other podcast yeah no i think so i think but i think the touring lifestyle is not um healthy by any means in in any way really um but i i find that that Nowadays, a lot of people are bringing trainers on the road. It's like a pretty serious part of touring. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people do. And depending on what kind of budget your tour has, you've got a vegan chef with you. Of course. And it's amazing. But there were fun times, no regrets. We had a blast, but we're always pretty level-headed. But gosh, there were some crazy times. What was the drink of choice back in the day? You know, it was loved beer, and maybe it was, I think, a kettle one with a splash of cranberry. And then there was a moment, a very ill-advised moment, when we were calling them Bloody Bulls and we were drinking. It was Tito's and Red Bull and Cranberry. Okay, yeah. We got to where we would have a couple of those before each show. And after about six weeks, we just asked our road manager, we were like, are we acting like jackasses on stage? Like, how bad is this? He's like, yeah, you are. And we're like, oh, my God, let's just put the brakes on. Yeah, when Red Bull first came out and everyone realized it tasted pretty damn good with a bunch of vodka in it, I think the whole world just kind of went a little sideways for a couple years. No, that's true. It was very popular. That's the way it was. But, yeah, and who's going to look sideways at something that can actually enhance the buzz? Wait, this has. This has.

caffeine and taurine and other things that rhyme with ean. I got to get my taurine. I got to get my taurine. I got to get my warine. I got to get my colonut. I got to catch a colonut. Got to get all these chemicals in my body as fast as possible. Yeah. So it quickly. But there was always those next days. You're like, why is my heart beating out of my chest? Oh, I had five Red Bulls and boxes. Yeah, that will do it. You know, I always found it. I used to manage a band and I used to find it fascinating that, you know, I was the manager. So I would just stand there and be fucked up. They would get up there and play, and I'm just like, is this just some muscle memory shit where the lights come on, they hand you the guitar, and you can just go do it? I mean, there certainly is a muscle memory element. You know, it's a weird melange of 10,000 hours, that whole thing, mixed with muscle memory, and I guess that's part of it, and sheer bravado and cockiness. And you can pretty much pull it. anything off but you know for me i being the singer in the band and kind of carrying the narrative of the show it was always a little more i i felt a little more uh pressure i always i always wish that i was just playing bass and not singing much maybe doing some bvs every once in a while but always had to be somewhat articulate or uh yes but but but i had a pretty good uh you had a script down i would imagine yeah i did a bit but then also i could i could handle my liquor and um and that's a pretty good argument for making sure you make a little bit more money than everyone else in the band too you know i gotta pull i gotta pull the extra weight guys thank you very i was gonna say you've been having this argument for 30 years fair is fair Fair is fair. But I do think that part, you're right, though. Having the mindset of having to basically carry on a conversation with the crowd in between songs does add to the pressure of the live performance. I think so. But luckily, I've always been a pretty gregarious guy.

I love talking to people and just kind of not taking ourselves seriously. So I was never a pensive, quiet artist. And that goes to this day. I just like talking to the crowd and having fun, maybe to a fault. It also helps when your crowd is as fucked up as you might be as well. But now they're not. they're older you know and if they are if they are as fucked up then that's just really sad like how many how many bottles of chardonnay did it take for you to get to this level i was gonna i was gonna ask though now that you put out a solo record and obviously the band still tours has the crowd mostly aged with you are you seeing young people or is it kind of a mix man it is a really cool mix uh and we we have it's funny On one far end is I'll be playing the show and I look out and I see people who look like really elderly, gray hair. And I'm like, wait, are – are they here to see us? And they're singing along every word. And then it dawns on me, like, oh, we've been around for, you know, the first album came out nationally 25 years ago this year. And so, hey, if they were 30 when they got into us, then, well, okay, or older, that makes sense. And then it's a little odd at first, and then, like, This is awesome. I'm still doing this, and people are enjoying it. And then you see young people, and maybe sometimes they're the kids of your fans. But then people who got into your later albums, and there's just so many different ways people get into your music and discover it. And so it's a really nice mix. But I would say, in general, I expect to see people in their 30s and ups at a Better Than Ezra show. But I'm always surprised when kids, and I'm like, after the show, they want to take photos or whatever. I'm like, how do you guys get in the band? My kids don't even know who I am. How do you guys know about us? It's amazing, and they'll have just great explanations, and it's cool.

You know, because I think all of us, you know, I was fans of bands that, you know, maybe weren't, who'd been around a long time. And I discovered their albums. I was like, this is great. I dig this. And I would go see them, you know, and it's great to be in that position to kind of have the table circle. Yeah, as you get older, it probably is a great confidence booster as well. Because everyone is kind of afraid of staying relevant as father time ticks away. I think every musician, no matter how big they are, whether it's Billy Joel selling out... Madison Square Garden, Billy Joel is a notoriously thin-skinned or insecure guy about his place in the pantheon of music. As he should be. He's always on probation from me. He's so good, though. But I think the point is, even someone who so clearly is gifted and had a massive, epic career, or somebody like me, you have those insecurities of your relevancy. And then if you're really smart and you stick with it, then you get to the point you're like, man, I've been allowed to do this career my whole life, something I dreamed about when I was in second grade, literally. And I'm getting to do it, and I make a great living, and I have a blast, and I get to do what I would do anyways on a daily basis. And then you get to this point of gratitude and say, wow, I'm in the top 2%. of musicians who start out as musicians because not many of us in the scheme of things get to do it as a career. So I'm just like, you know, because when you're younger, you go down the road, why haven't I gotten this? Why didn't this record sell or whatever? You know, why am I not seen, why am I not regarded like Tommy Hork or Radiohead? You know, and then you get over those silly kind of thoughts and you get to a place where you're grateful and you really enjoy the career. I feel like you've seen,

All of it. Because there was a time where you guys probably benefited greatly from radio and what that means. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. And now it's basically streaming is all that matters in a lot of ways. And I don't think many people have had a career through both of those things. Well, certainly I have. And Better Than Ezra got to see the... The end, we came in right at the big bang, the big end of the old music industry where mechanical sales, which is the physical album, physical sales of CDs and vinyl and cassettes, you know, was really still big. And labels were making money hand over fist, you know. And then, you know, in 99, Sean Fanning came along with Napster. And then it was just, you know. chaos for a while and it's really the dust is really just starting to settle but i tell you you know so and then those times when everyone was figuring out how do you monetize what we do um now streaming with you know subscription services The labels are posting bigger profits than they ever have quarterly now. But that said, the songwriters, we're getting the shaft still and getting a portion of that streaming income. And that's a whole long story why. But it's finally getting addressed with things like the Music Modernization Act that was passed last year to bipartisan support. But you know what, man? It's funny. there's just a lot more income streams they're smaller but uh they can add up to something that's pretty great and then as a band you know whether you have old music or, you know, I still have the Better Than Ezra stuff, and then I've always written for other artists. You know, syncing your songs to film and TV. Of course, yeah, it's the best. There's such a vast world out there of the Amazon Primes and the Apple. What's the number one sync? Baby, let's go. What's number one of all time?

What do you mean? The song that's been synced the most? No, I'm talking biggest money. We need a dollar amount here. I think probably, wow, probably the stupidest it ever got was good. There was a series of young adult books called The Babysitter's Club. Oh, yes, yes. There's a new show right now. It doesn't surprise me because it was a huge book. But there was a movie that came out in 96. And they came to us and they wanted to use good in the trailer. It wasn't even the film, just the trailer. And the first offer was 250K. And then we said, absolutely not. We're an alternative band. Which was ridiculous. Like late 90s, I'm assuming? Yeah, yes. This is in a time where selling out was still very much looked down upon. Yeah, well, this was right before Moby kind of did the sea change. Blew the doors off. Yeah, when Moby came along with Play and licensed every song on that album for millions and millions, and finally it became cool to sink and brag about it. But this was before that. Hold a second. Let me turn. I'm realizing. Am I charging now? Yes. So anyway, so we kept saying no to them because we're like, no way we're doing that. Then they came back. I think finally it was like at 550, 550K. Like a 15-second use in the trailer only. And we said yes. So that was good. But other songs like... I think you made the right decision. That was good. Just looking back, hindsight 2020. Yeah, yeah, hindsight 2020. But different songs, you know, whether it was Collide, it did really well. So you co-wrote that song, right? Yes. That song was, like, inescapable. That song was inescapable. And check this out. Let's hope it's about to be inescapable again because Lil Peep, the... No, covered it? Yeah, the rapper who died two years ago. Yeah, yeah.

he and a guy named cold heart who's still alive did a they sampled the song and they have a song called me and you and it's coming out uh the official it's been underground for them but the official release comes out july 27th and so i have a part of that because they use this you know they've sampled the song so i'm hoping That is the most full circle. I was talking about with a songwriter, producer, friend last night about Lil Peep because a lot of people in the business were like, this guy's it. Like, this guy's got it. You know, he's really going to go. He's good looking. He's talented. And obviously, he died super young. But I didn't realize he had. So there's like an album coming out, like official. I'm not even sure. I just know that the singles coming out because it took them a long. They contacted me back in. January because they had to get the sample approved with Epic and, you know, and the, and the publishers, my publisher and, and how do you, do you like what they did with it? I think, you know what? It's, it's, it's just, I told people, I go, it's just bad enough to be huge. Wow. Spoken like a true songwriter. I can approve this one. I can approve this one. I can approve. It's just bad enough. Is that the first time your music has been sampled for a hip-hop or electronic music song? I think, well, this kind of, not an EDM, but this cool sample-based artist called Girl Talk. Yes, we're familiar. sampled some Better Than Ezra in the past. But just real quick, going back to Lil Peep, and you said you mentioned him. It's such a shame that all those, a lot of those, and I guess it's such a little kind of moment, the artist with the Lil in front of it. More than a few of them have died. Then there's Mac Miller who died, all these guys who were doing drugs and then that were laced with fentanyl, and they're gone.

this is literally i was literally having this conversation about like anybody who's it's really happening for it seems like they die you know and it's and if it's not drug related it's violent you know it's it's a shooting or whatever but like the drug i mean the fentanyl shit is crazy and how it affects like that world specifically juice world the juice world same thing juice world you know it's it's just well look and You know, those people got stuff that was laced with it. And then there's people like Prince who were doing it because they had so much pain. And it's just a shame. I mean, thank God, honestly, I don't do drugs anymore because everywhere fentanyl is popping up, killing people or almost killing them. And it's just scary times. Well, it's in everything. I mean, it's in pills. It's like you can't really, you know. It's nuts. It's nuts. Why would people put that in Coke? Because Coke's to be, you know, it's just like, why would you do that? A question we've asked many times on this podcast. Yeah, in my day, they cut Coke with like fake baby powder. You know what I mean? You don't cut Coke with another drug that could kill somebody. That brings you down, right? Yeah, we're going to lose your customer base too. It seems like a bad business decision. It's bad, just bad business decision. But anyhow. That's just because the FBI is putting it in there, guys. That's a good point. We need to open up our third eye a little bit more. That's right. You've got to get woke on that shit. Open your third eye, Kevin. Well, that's interesting. I'm actually excited to hear this because that song was so big and I remember, I mean, what era was that? Like 2005, 2006? Yes, 2006 is when it hit. Yeah, I mean, having written... whether it's Ezra's stuff or Add a Few Country Hits, and then there's the Hot AC and Top 40. The songs that can impact you the biggest as a songwriter are a lot of those, often the Hot AC songs, because that format, it takes so long for the song to go up the charts because they just sit on songs. And then once it's up there, it doesn't go away, and it's that middle-of-the-road...

kind of genre that movies and advertisers, sponsors want to sync. Because it's so harmless, you know. Everyone loves it. Could you explain what that stands for for our listeners who might not know? Oh, the word sync? No. No, hot AC. Hot AC. Oh, yeah. Well, a couple things. Well, first, sync, when you say – just to be – let's be really thorough. Sync means synchronization. It's literally when a commercial, whether it's Apple or McDonald's or Buick or a movie, wants to synchronize, meaning take your song and – and connect it to their visual image, the synchronization. Edit their video to your song. Yeah, so when you hear a songwriter say, oh, I got a big sync license, that's what you mean. And that is, to be clear, that is like a huge form of income for almost any artist. I mean, that's like a big deal. I mean, you know, on every level for every genre. You guys are very familiar with mailbox money. Yeah, and for the longest time as an artist, you were embarrassed by that. You would never say, you know, yeah, our song is coming out on Applebee's next week. But now you're like, yo, yo, Applebee's just licensing shit. Check it out. And it's great. Wait, what was the other? Hot AC. Oh, Hot AC stands for, well, ACs is a radio format called Adult Contemporary. And that's artists like Michael Buble and stuff like that. Then Hot AC skews a little younger, and you can have an artist like Howie Day or now One Republic, Sara Bareilles, that kind of stuff. All the classics. And maybe Lady Gaga. Yeah, all the greats. All the greats. I mean, that, but that to me is the music that I refer to that as like grocery store music. Yeah. You can hear those songs from that, from Hot AC songs from any era you can still hear in public all the time.

Like Christina Perry, you know, a thousand years or something like that. I mean, that's. How did you, did you get into the country shit because you moved to Nashville? Is that part of the reason? No, I got into the country world. I was living in Silver Lake. I was out there. I've been here in Franklin, Tennessee for, January will be 10 years. And I was out in LA and I was writing. Where did you live in Silver Lake? I lived on Lanterman Terrace, which is right off of Mitchell Torina. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, right up there at the top of where Mitchell Torino goes over the hill, goes over the mountaintop. And there's a little spur, this great little street called Lanterman Terrace. I lived there when I was there last. But I've lived in L.A. many times since I got out of college in the early 90s. Welcome to Hollywood. Welcome to Hollywood. I want to get into some 90s, early 2000s, swingers era L.A. life for you. We'll get into that later. I was a bartender to a lot of those places. But, yeah, so, wait, Silver Lake. Country, country. Oh, yeah, so I was writing with this guy named Shai Carter. And Shai was a rap producer. His biggest, this is 2010. And he had had a lot of success in the past with Nelly. He'd produced a lot of that stuff. And he was this young kid. And we were riding in my studio in Atwater Village. And at the time, Jason Mraz, I'm Yours, was really big and trained Hey Soul Sister. And I was just like, on my guitar, I was like, let's do something like that. It was one of those sessions where neither one of us had an idea, but we were very overt. Like, what's hot on the radio? Let's write a song that can make us a lot of money. Yes, exactly. And so we did that for about two hours. And we played around with stuff, and we were getting nothing. And it was one of those days where I'm looking up in the top right-hand corner of my laptop at the time, just slowly ticking by going, oh, my God, this is going to be one of those sessions. We took a break. We went and got some coffee. We came back, and Shai went out.

He goes, yo, Kevin, I'm going to get some herbal inspiration. And I was like, okay. And I came back in, and he came back to the studio, and he was suitably elevated on another plane of existence. And so I had built this little kind of track, a little loop of me tapping on the guitar and making some kind of sounds. And he was like, yo, give me a vocal track. And we put autotune on this track. And I've got a guitar right here. So I was going like this. Just those three chords, like a campfire chords. And he started singing through autotune. And if you don't know what autotune is, you've heard of. T-Pain and all that kind of stuff, but basically it's an app for a recording platform where you plug in the key of the song that you're recording, and then anything you sing will be in tune with that. It'll be a third or a fifth or the main melody. So that's the way a lot of pop songs are created, just fish around for melodies. And he was fishing around, and we got this melody. And within 20 minutes, we'd written this song. And I was like, I knew that this was a hit song. And I called up Jennifer Nettles from Sugar Land. I was like, hey. Are you guys done with your album? She's like, no, we're recording in five days, and we need a single. And I was like, I have your first single. And it never happens that way. And sent her the song. It was called Stuck Like Glue, and it became a massive song for them. But that's how I got into country. I was like, this is easy. So Atwater Village, the Nashville of LA, baby. Oh, my God. But you know what? I'm a Southerner. I'm from New Orleans. I was born in Atlanta. Oh, you know, I'm from Atlanta, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just there. Oh, wait a second. This is right. Somebody's got a 404. Yeah, that's me. But I think that country music, did your parents like grow up listening to it? Was like part of the household? No, for me it was Elvis and Janis Joplin and the Beatles. But I was missing the South. I already saw there was a movement that, you know.

People were moving to Nashville, and Nashville wasn't just going to be country anymore. It was going to be all music, and the quality of life, how you can live here compared to how I was living in L.A., which I love my place, but I just had twin boys. That made three boys, and I was living in this kind of glass house, this 50s modern post and beam. Was it post and beam? Am I getting that correct? Sure. You were living in a stabbing cabin and you got three kids. It's time to grow up. for toddlers it was a toddler death trap um but so anyway so in 2011 moved to uh to Franklin Tennessee and and and and bought this beautiful home on property and built a studio and and I haven't looked back but really so it was a combination of knowing I needed to be back down south because I missed SEC football and I missed the Gulf Coast and then I wanted to live better and and maybe also at the time I was still kind of drinking not drinking a lot but I would still uh have late nights and i was maybe pulling what you call a geographic when like oh if i leave la uh my life will change from the inside and out as you know as you learn you realize that you know anywhere you go there you are um kind of thing And so it was a lot of things that kind of conspired to push me to Nashville. And I'm glad it did. And so I still write country, but I'm still mostly rock and pop. And I work a lot with, I guess, bands that would be called alternative. I've asked this question to all my friends that are in the biz, especially the writing crowd. But has somebody really blown you away and just sang their ass off in a way that shocked you? Oh, my God. There's been so many. Kanye. Kanye. Yeah. You know, there's people I get to work with whose voices, I mean. Because I feel like a lot of people can't fucking sing for real. That's why I'm asking this. Most people can't really sing. I got to say, so right off the bat, some voices that just blew me away that were so damn good. Well, one voice is a very popular guy. Pat Monahan from Train has.

Such a great gift. He has such a distinct voice. It inspires you to write melodies because he has so much headroom. Delta Goodrum, who's an Australian artist, she's huge in other parts of the world. Not a lot of people know her here. Missy Higgins, who's another Australian woman, a female artist who's amazing. Who knew these Aussies, huh? Actually, I've done a lot of writing and had success with Australian artists. Howie Day, great voice. Who else? Who just have such command of their voice and their intonation, or meaning how well on pitch they sing. Who are some other people? That's what I just I've heard stories of just like, yeah, you know, I I was walking up the hill and somebody was working with Adele and I could hear it from the street. You know what I mean? Just some like, oh, just like break a window shit. There's people you get to. I work with a lot of there's a lot of artists I work with that you just you haven't heard of because they're not household names like Brie Kennedy. who's an amazing young artist, and their voices are just... It takes me five or six takes when I'm singing, and I use Pro Tools to record, to get to the point where I'm not cringing when I listen back. Then I go through the process where I do some judicious tuning of my vocal. The vocal chain is very long. Yeah, it's very long. You're a professional. You have to send out polished material. So many people, man, I'm blown away. Really, I was a late bloomer, I feel like, as a songwriter and as a performer. And I get to work with a lot of artists who are in their late teens and early 20s, and they're so accomplished.

and composed uh i certainly was that i was a hack compared to some of the people i get to work with and are you one of those guys though that never really cared about singing you wanted to play guitar that you just happened to be the singer No, I mean, singing always came naturally to me. My main thing that I loved to do was write songs, and guitar was the way I was able to kind of get that song down. Do you play piano and everything, too? I play it all to lesser and lesser degrees of proficiency. If guitar is my instrument, then there's an incredible fall-off in talent. It's just, yeah, it goes back. I was writing, there's a band, I've written a lot with Ed Robertson from Pure Naked Ladies. He's one of the funniest guys you'll ever meet. And he was down here at the studio in Nashville, and I was playing bass on a track we'd just written, and I produced and put the track together. And I finished with the bass part, and I was like, all right, let's put some keyboards. And I looked back at him, and his mouth was just hanging open. He was like, that was the most ham-fisted bass part I've ever heard. I was like, God, good on you for using the word ham-fisted. It's a demo, bro. Relax. But some other great young artists who have amazing voices, Luke Spiller from The Struts. Luke, do you know the band The Struts? Are they from L.A.? They're a British band. I think they live in L.A. right now. They're on Interscope, and they were out touring a lot with Foo Fighters. They're like Queen meets ACDC, and he's got these pipes that are just insanity. And so I can come up with any idea, and he just nails it. Well, I guess that's the thing. I guess if you know somebody has it like that, then you can write it differently. It's super inspiring when you work with an artist.

And I've worked with artists who have terrible voices, too, that it's like some type of chemical that removes paint. If you could put that into a voice box and make it something sonic as opposed to a liquid, I've had that happen as well. That's why God invented autotune. That's why God. Science has its limits, guys. How hard do you work to try and stay on top of the current musical trends, or do you not really pay attention to it that much? I'm able to do it because I'm such a fan of music. On a few fronts, it helps having kids. My oldest son is 21. My youngest, my twins are 11. And they're like typical kids listening to rap and some pop, but discovering rock too. So my 21-year-old, I always listen to the stuff he's listening to. But then I'm always listening to the New Music Friday playlist. And I just love discovering new music. And then working with young artists, I get to listen to what they're down with. And then just because it's new influences, it's new chord progressions and voicings. And so it just keeps it fresh for me. I think that if I didn't write outside of being an artist, then I would have trouble kind of knowing what's going on. But at the same time, I can't escape. you know, where I'm from and what I'm imprinted with musically, you know, what I'm really good at, what my wheelhouse is. And that'll always be, I will always default to certain tricks of the trade. That said, I'm always trying to say, okay, how do I, I don't want to, here's what I would normally do here in the song. Let's not do that. Let's not, you know, do the,

You know, a half as long second verse. Let's not do the broken down third course. What can we do? And then let's listen to some cool stuff. What have you been doing? Oh, I love this new Christian Lee Hudson record. Or I love this insert. you know, cool band, what do they do on that song? And then you go listen to it and you get inspired. I think for me it's critical to always be searching and being inspired and being challenged with new music. And I think it's such a great time as a music fan to be listening to music because the access to music is so great. I'm kind of an unabashed optimist about where music's going, even though there's challenges. For example, I have a subscription to Spotify. I do the $10 a month premium service or whatever it's called. At the same time, I know that Spotify is ripping songwriters off, and they're appealing the act that I mentioned earlier, the music modernization act. uh just a small increase but a step towards some parody in uh what songwriters get so they're really so there's a kind of dichotomy with like it's basically unavoidable is what you're saying yeah i mean i love a great i love the service and and it's so intuitive spotify it's great kevin did you also know you can use it to listen to some of your favorite podcasts as well Just download the Spotify app now, okay? Just something we would drop in there, yeah. I like that. But no, I'm the same exact way. I used to love owning my music, even if it was like an MP3 file. I used to really want to get the WAV file or a FLAC file to have a good quality of it. Yeah. to play it out and bring it with me in the car or on my computer or whatever. And now I fully don't give a shit. I just stream everything off of Spotify. Me too. I don't know if that means I've given up. No. Well, there's a few things. One, thank God that the BitTorrent era is gone where you could steal stuff.

I just got Hamilton for free, baby. But most people, I was about to say, it is definitely, though, I think, moved towards TV and movies more than music. Maybe just in my world, that's the only time I hear about Torrent. I just needed to make it easy enough to where you don't feel like stealing anymore. Yeah, I think you're right. You're actually really on point there. It's all about how easy is it? What's the easiest thing? If you make it super easy, and and intuitive then people will pay for that service and that's what they've done with with spotify um yeah all right well let's uh let's take it back to the 90s as jason was saying where did you work in hollywood oh i know where he worked in hollywood i i did some online research chris chris is a big fan of the inner workings of the music biz and i i think i read that you were out there at caa back in the day well when i first well done Were you in the Ovid era? When I moved to LA, I had graduated LSU and Ezra had played a year and then we took a break and I lived in Aspen for a year being a ski bum and playing apres ski. I bet that was very cool for you. We could do a whole podcast on just the Aspen experience. I bet you were really living the dream at that time. A lot of good cougars up there. From hanging out with ski instructors to Michael Douglas and George Michael. It was craziness. It was a good time. Two of my favorite guys with Michael in their name. All the great Michaels are up there in Aspen. It's so amazing. I ended up in L.A., and I was a bartender at first at a restaurant called Border Grill in Santa Monica, which was this amazing— I know those ladies. Yeah, Susan Finnegan and Mary Sue Millican. They're great. They're on the Food Network. Then they had City Restaurant on La Brea and Sixth, and it was more refined. I guess it was kind of a 90s concept.

It's no longer there, but they still do well. But during that time, you know, Ezra, we made the record that became Deluxe. We made it on half-inch 16-track analog tape, which if you know anything about it, that's almost hobbyist quality. And we did it in an apartment in West Hollywood on South Forest Street. I would like to point out the absolute, you know, chest-poking bravado that it takes to call your debut Deluxe. I really like that. Oh, we know it was, it was, it was because there was a, we had a old photo I took of my girlfriend's foot on a bicycle and the bike, the bike, this vintage bike was said super deluxe. We just loved like deluxe is so cool. Let's do that. And then we, I mean, we did everything ourselves, but to answer your question, yes, I worked, I worked at CAA in the mail room. During the Ovitz era with Fred Spector, and we were in that I Am Pay building, which is now Sony, I believe. But I busted my ass to get a job there because I always wanted a safety net, at least the illusion of safety net. If music didn't work out, I was going to go to law school or I was going to be an agent or something. Music ended up winning out. But I spent about six months at CAA. I worked really hard to get the job. If you don't know about the mailroom program at the big agencies, the way you get your entree into the gilded halls of being an agent is you've got to work in the mailroom. And I was in there with Harvard grads and Stanford grads, and I was this LSU. And I really realized in short order that this is not what I want to do. I want to have them working for me. And the amazing thing is CAA is an agent for a project I do, which is nice. I was going to ask if they ended up being your agent. Oh, yeah. William Morris and CAA. Actually, Ezra is represented by William Morris and Solo. And then one project I do with Mark McGrath.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What? Yeah, yeah. This is a Sugar Ray positive podcast just to let you know. I'm sorry. What do you do with Entertainment Tonight's Mark McGrath? He's actually extra. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. There you go. Let's be clear. Let's get it right. I'm all for it. I apologize. You're my co-host. I think it's a great pivot for him. So Mark and I have been friends, and we started this. Well, about five years ago, I wrote this song. with a guy named Jamie Moore and Rodney Clausen. They're two big country writers, and it was called B-Y-H-B, Bring Your Hot Body. What? What? And it was a pitch for Florida Georgia Line, and they actually liked the song. Okay, never mind. Now it makes sense. Now it makes sense. And they didn't cut it, and it was languishing, and Ezra was doing a tour with Uncle Cracker and Sugar Ray, and I was like, you know what? I'm going to... I reached out to Mark and Uncle Cracker and I was like, hey, I've got this song to publicize this tour. Let's all three sing it. And we formed this band called Uncle Ezra Ray. And if you go on Spotify, if you go on Spotify, you can listen to. B-Y-H-B, Bring Your Hot Body by Uncle Ezra Ray. So that's a play on B-Y-O-B, but you're replacing... Bring your own bottle to bring your hot body. Bring your hot body. Just want to clarify. Just check any coolness at the door and play the song. And any good taste. And it's actually, for that kind of bro country, it's awesome. But anyways, so me and Mark and Cracker, we did this song, and it actually did well. And then that kind of – we just never toured it or anything. But later, me and Mark got together with Emerson Hart from Tonic, and we have Uncle Ezra Ray. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We have Ezra Ray Hart, and now for four years, we've been like this corporate juggernaut.

Uh, so if, if you're Amazon or, or, uh, gosh, insert. They hire you guys, you guys come play. We, we come and play, we do our hits and then we play other 90 songs. And we were, man, this, this fall, we were going to be doing all these County fairs and stuff and actually putting out new music and then Corona hit. But so Ezra Ray Hart is a, is a. ongoing band that I do. And we have such a good time because we all three get to sit back and not have to be the front man. It's very interesting to me that you're such buddies with kind of your contemporaries from that era. Oh, yeah. I feel like, I guess I just don't expect that. Not even like for a good reason. I don't know why. I'm just a little surprised. Well, it's actually kind of accurate for, I mean, bands by... by definition, you're kind of insular and you've got a chip on your shoulder. You think you're better than your peers. And then there were plenty of bands that we weren't close with, but certainly the bands that you hit it off with, like the guys in Tonic and Mark and Rodney and Sugar Ray and other bands, they're just good people. And we also kind of recognize, like, hey, man, our bands will always be known as 90s bands, whether we like it or not. Let's embrace that and use it and have fun with it and make this another income stream and something fun to do because the fans love it. Yeah, it seems like you have a very good business acumen of kind of learning how to play the record and the music game. Well done. Well, thank you. But, you know, I wasn't able to be in a band, you know, I wasn't in a band like U2 or Coldplay or Insert Band that just had such massive success. So Ezra, I love the success we've had. For me, it was always about having more irons in the fire and writing for artists. And then I started a music festival, Pilgrimage Festival in Franklin, Tennessee, has turned into a major music festival. And so that's been a great ride.

Justin Timberlake's a partner in the festival with me and some other founders. Friend of the show, Justin Timberlake. Justin, oh, man. Well, you know, that's why I did it. Tennessee native. He said, Kevin, I understand your concerns and your reservations about doing with those guys for good reason, but give him a chance. And I was like, are you sure? Are you sure? And he said, he yelled. uh because we were on speakerphone he yelled to jessica biel and said jessica should you do the podcast he's like yes they're great guys i love that i love when the family gets behind us yes um i actually saw i saw i all joking aside our friend david uh works with him and we saw i went to the last tour and um man that motherfucker's got songs like you kind of forget like how deep the catalog is oh man he he is uh he's that You call it a five-tool performer. I don't know what all the tools are, but he can dance, he can sing, he can act, he can write, he can cook, I'm sure. But he's such a badass. He's a good dude. He can validate the cars. Oh, my God. But you're right. As a performer, you know, one thing I love, one thing that... If you get kind of the chip off your shoulder when you're trying to be cool when you first start your band and you kind of open up your eyes, you realize the thing that sustains you through a career, regardless of your genre, whether it's rock or indie or super hipster alternative or super pop, authenticity. is what separates the men from the boys and Justin Timberlake's just got authenticity. It doesn't matter if I'm with some guy who hates everything. He's like a Jack Black version of the Jack Black's character in High Fidelity who hated everything. Everybody loves this guy because he's the real deal. He brings it. For sure. Undeniable talent.

I agree. But this podcast is not about him. No, it's not. It's not. We do a separate Justin Timberlake fan podcast, also available on Spotify, of course. I love it. But, you know, we'll save that for another time. I think did you now in the – when you were touring, touring in the early days, did you guys – was it – I guess in that time, was it a lot of packages or was it the classic opener, headliner? Or were you guys opening for U2? You know what I mean? So many of our peers did the opening thing, were opening for bigger bands. But Ezra was lucky in that, I think we were lucky in that... Good was already number one when we got signed. So we never took... Wait, it was number one independent? Yeah. So it was already number one at 99X in Atlanta. Oh, classic. We love 99X. Big shout out to 99X. Right. Leslie Fram. Big shout out. Leslie Fram. Look, and Leslie... She's in Nashville now, right? Leslie is a higher up at CMT. Love to see her. And she's such a great person. We're still very close. So we already had... It wasn't number one nationally, but at the stations that really mattered to us, it was number one. So when Electric came along, they just had to add the money to get it to all the other PDs. So we never did an opening tour back in the day. um for anybody it later i mean only in the past five years have we gone out on tour with bands like bare naked ladies where you know we were we supported them and that's fine uh well that i think that the support thing the support thing now though i think that it's at the point where people don't even pay attention like it doesn't i i i think the bigger the band the less people care about who's opening Yeah, and look, these are kind of summer package tours we do now. Yeah, yeah. A big shed summer. Yeah, this past summer was actually right now it's supposed to be Goo Goo Dolls Better Than Ezra and Tonic out on the road. I'm a big Goo fan. We're a Goo Positive podcast as well. Goo Positive. And I was fired up about it. And there were great venues. We were going to do Red Rocks again, and that would have been a blast.

But we always had bands open for us, and we had so many great bands. I was going to ask, did anybody go on to really do it? Well, Train, Matchbox 20, a lot of 90s bands that ended up having bigger success than us opened for us. But then a lot of cool bands like James Holland, Pleasure Club, Brad, Marcy Playground opened up for us. A lot of bands that ended up maybe eclipsing our success. So we were always able to be our own headliner, and that was really cool. One of my favorite bands in my area that I think is truly underappreciated is the Jim Blossoms. Oh, yeah. Do you have any Jim Blossoms tales? You know what? We didn't play any shows with them until... Until much, much later and really kind of in the past four or five years because their manager knew our manager and we've done some shows with them. I got to say that the best package tour is Gin Blossoms and Tonic and they call it Gin and Tonic. Damn. What a great name. It was written in the stars. I know, right? I know those guys. And that first album is... It's such a great pop record. I mean, the song Allison Road, to me, is like one of the best. I just love it. It's like an all-time. And I just, you know, I just, they had a little bit of a moment, but it didn't go as big as it could. You know, those guys, I think if they had been maybe a more compelling live band. Yeah. You know, and... If they were a little more Blossom, a little less gin. Yeah, yeah, maybe. But that's just who they are, and their songs are timeless. You know, they will always tour. They will always do well. And, yeah. I just think a lot of that, Goo Goo Dolls, too, I think a lot of that era is, like, pretty influenced by, like, the replacements and, like, Big Star and stuff that I really like and think is super cool. And I don't think people really realize that because of, like, the radio play and, like, the era, which I also think is interesting. Oh, well, it's funny.

replacements were were look they were the dna of the goo goo dolls if you listen to name it sounds like classic paul westerberg but then you know so and there's such a law there's a litany of bands that were so good but didn't have the success they should have but influenced bands that took their sound and made it big you know certainly goo goo dolls you know were influenced heavily by by by uh you know replacements and paul westerberg you know on a different level better than ezra i mean good if you listen to good it's basically me trying to do a pixie song you know and and so me and it was it was that whole uh loud quiet loud uh yeah writing a song and that that's there's it that's not a it's not a coincidence that the documentary of of the pixies is called loud quiet loud and what it means is you know it's the same chords you're just using a distortion pedal and dynamics to go from verse to chorus to bridge verse chorus you know so um nirvana made that pretty big as well yeah And so many bands that you hear on How to See Radio, we all started off as alternative bands. But then as times changed, what was alternative became kind of middle of the road. And now Jim Blossoms, I'm not sorry, not Jim Blossoms, but Goo Goo Dolls. I mean, they've had such massive hits, but they're great songs. And Johnny Resick has such a cool voice. But it started off, I mean, Goo Goo Dolls were like a punk band. That's what I mean. That's what I don't think people realize. Because I grew up, Jason and I both grew up going to punk and hardcore shows. There were bands out of that world that kind of went on in the same way to kind of make it in whatever way. whatever that means with a major label or whatever. Um, but I think people have a hard time imagining some of these bands before the radio, like they had a life that they had a life before this, you know? Um, yeah. And that, and it's cool. It's good that they kind of evolved and became what they became. Cause they would, you know, they'd be selling insurance or doing whatever now. Uh, like, like some of their beer, like some of their peers, but, uh, yeah, that, you know, they did, they all,

It's fun to go back and see where a band came from. For some reason, early Goo Goo Dolls makes me think of the Lemonheads, too. Oh, don't get me started on the Lemonheads. That's top five of all time for me. It's a shame about Ray. Maybe one of the greatest records ever made, right? My man. You hear that, Jason? You hear that? Loud and clear. Loud and clear. And then you can't forget that Evan Dando was such a babe. Honestly, I think he sabotaged his career because he was so good looking. Too hot to rock. He couldn't get the respect. He felt like he needed to. All that was self-imposed because people loved his music and he was a great looking dude, but he got so fucked up from drugs and he never. I don't know if he's clean now. He's not. He ruined his career, man. It's such a shame. But he was such a badass. I saw them. We played a show with them before we were signed, I think in like 93, the Zephyr Fest in New Orleans. And he was hanging out with, you know, the actress Mila Jovovich? Oh, yeah, yeah. We're from all the Resident Evil movies. Well, before she got big, she had. an album that was this weird kind of goth, this chamber pop. It was called, what was it called? The divine comedy. And it was super pretentious kind of, but she was, she had performed at this, at this show. And I was like, Oh my God, this girl's amazing. Who is this? And Dan and Dando was with her. As soon as you see, you know, a young Mila Jojovic backstage and then Dando appears in the background, you might as well just throw in the hat. Throw in the towel. He's going to toss those locks chair style. That's so funny. Yeah, we talk about Lemonheads a lot. I mean, a lot of my friends that are my age, like late 30s, have that affinity for that record especially.

But I do think he's the kind of guy who's disappeared and done this stuff, so it makes the mystique that much greater. It does. He's kind of a tragic story. Like a hotter Elliot Smith. Yeah, exactly. Gosh, I was just listening to Elliot Smith the other day. You guys are Elliot Smith fans, right? Oh, huge. Okay, I mentioned this guy once already in the cast. Let's just call it Apostrophe Cast. Go right ahead, sir. Okay, guys, your next favorite artist is Christian Lee Hudson. Where is he from? I'm not sure where he's from, but he has an album that came out May 29th of this year. It's called Beginners. And I've given you a gift. You'll thank me later. Did you write some of these songs? No, nothing to do with them at all. I got turned on to him by Matt Nathanson. It's on anti, which I do like. Yeah, and just listen to Atheist, listen to Lose This Number, or listen to Talk. I feel like a friend of mine who's a big Dando head actually sent me this now that I'm looking at the cover. It's insane. If you listen to it and you're like, oh my God, this is like the love child of Elliot Smith and John Lennon and Evan Dando and then throw in such great. He has a new voice in lyric writing, I think, as different as Ben Gibbard did when he came out with Death Cab. We're not a pro-Death Cab podcast, unfortunately. Can't win them all, brother. Death Cab was a moment in time, for sure. Oh, for sure. I just love the lyrics, but check that record out. More of a Postal Service fan over here, but yeah, go ahead. I will check this out. I think we're good. Thanks for coming on. One last question for you. Go ahead, Jason. Oasis or Blur? That's a tough one. It's not a tough one, actually. It's not a tough one at all. So make sure you get the right answer. It is a very tough one. God, it's hard because if I had to listen to nothing but those two bands, one band, I would say Blur.

Oh, my God. Well, the podcast is getting deleted. No thank you for your time. I had a feeling you would say that answer, and Chris is a very giant Oasis fan. Let me tell you, I love Oasis. I love Noel Gallagher. I love Liam. Man, we had Noel Gallagher booked this year, 2020, at Pilgrimage Festival. And I love all their records in Supernova. That documentary is so fucking brilliant. But then again, I love... Damon Albarn's songwriting and Coffee and Cigarettes and 13 and Parklife. Coffee and Cigarettes is a smash. And maybe it's because I'm kind of discovering more old Blur albums and songs than I am Oasis because I've worn them out. So that's kind of who I'm more into now. So sorry I said the wrong thing. I think Oasis is obviously a very amazing, important band, but they were a little bit more of a one-trick pony, which was a good trick. But Blur, they kind of covered a whole lot of grounds, and they could do it all very well. And I think they had more good albums than Oasis did. Now, look, Oasis is great, but Oasis had definitely maybe. They had some stinkers. Then the last two albums were so coke-drenched kind of crap. Okay, guys. Okay, we're going to wrap it up. Not in a good way. Not in a good way. You guys can't see me, but my eyes are popping out of my head right now. There's a lot of coke-drenched albums that are very good because of it. You know, like the Strokes or something like that. You know, that first record was Coke Drenched in the best way, but it can go dark. It can go Johnny Depp Coke Drenched. Look, I appreciate your – you're a professional, so I respect your opinion more than others, Kevin. You know what I mean? Jason's opinion, I could care less about. Your opinion, I feel like it's coming from a place that I'm not used to hearing. But unfortunately, also, I'm the kind of person who's very influenced by swag. And no one has more than Oasis. No one has more swag than fucking Liam when he was in his prime, man. No one has more swag. With that anorak on, just fucking, it's 100 degrees and he's got five layers on and he's cool as a cucumber. I can't, I just can't look, I can't get past that. Maybe that's for the best for me. I feel like I want to smoke two cigarettes at a time as soon as we finish this podcast. Do you want...

Do you want a reunion? Do you want Oasis to go back out? I will fly to Glastonbury and pay. I'll take a helicopter from London to go see Oasis. I'll pay whatever it costs. Okay, I would too. The one-two punch that would seal the deal for me is Friday, Oasis, Saturday, The Smiths. Oh, dude, wow. Yeah, you're really speaking my language. I mean. And that's not asking too much. That's not asking. Yeah, Friday, you get in a fight with somebody. Saturday, you're crying in the toilet somewhere. First of all, it's not crazy because that's the least the country of England can do. That's the least they can do at this point. I think that Oasis will reunite because I think Liam needs the money. The dollars, the money's going to be too... The money's too crazy. The problem is Noel doesn't need it as a songwriter, as you know. So it's a little bit of a situation. But look, all we can do is cross our fingers. Let's cross our fingers and let's hope for the best. That's all we can do. I will tell you, the last great show I saw at the Hollywood Bowl was Blur. Blur at the Hollywood Bowl sounds pretty sick. It was so good. What year? This is like four years ago. Oh, okay, okay, okay. They toured and it was insane. The only thing that makes a blur show better when you're in your 40s, being able to sit down at that blur show. Right? We saw KC Musgraves at the Bowl, right, Jason? That's right. That was our last show at the bottom. That poor thing. Poor thing. If she was attractive, then her career would be just huge. You know how they're just the booze? I know. I know. You've got to love her. She's so good. She's so good. Hey, guys, thank you so much for having me. And sorry for my tardiness. But we made it. We made it happen. And thanks to Garrett for putting us together. Yes, thank you for Garrett Colton, our Oklahoma City-based friend, longtime friend and listener for putting this together. And thanks to Justin Timberlake for putting it all together as well. Exactly. Well, look, credit where credit is due. Jessica Biel for convincing me to do this. Jessica Biel. Kevin, where can they find you on the internet? Instagram, Twitter, etc. I'm Kevin M. Griffin.

at Instagram and Twitter, then Kevin Griffin and Facebook, and then KevinGriffinMusic.com if you're old school and only go to a website. I don't even know if it's active anymore, but Instagram is my jam. All right, great. We'll find you there. Thanks so much, Kevin. Love it, guys. Hey, guys, good success. Thank you. You too, Matt. Bye, y'all.