843. - Michael M. Grynbaum

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? It is Chris Black coming to you from the motherland, London, England, Durant's Hotel in Marlebone, them jeans. On his Italian vacation. How are we feeling? What hotel did you say you were at? Durant's? Yeah, my friend Brooks from Charleston, he spends a lot of time in England. He's really explored the region, and he suggested this a while back. It's very, very old school British. It's cool. I like it a lot. It's funny, and it's in a great neighborhood. So Brooks says go to Durant's. It's a lot of plural shit going on right now. What's up with that? It's a lot of plural. I can't explain that part now. I don't know about all that. So you're enjoying old world England. Old world England. 17th century likely? Yeah, definitely. The bodies are buried in here somewhere. But I was walking around as soon as I got out of the cab. And I saw Juliana Salazar on the street, which is pretty funny. But I went into a restaurant to get some eggs. I was seated next to enemy of the show, Scott Galloway. And I didn't know if it was him at first. And then I heard his voice. I was like, oh, that's definitely him. And I really, I was planning to go say hello, introduce myself. But he was in sort of like a serious conversation with a guy in a very nice suit.

You know, like it looked like a money guy conversation. Do you think he was pitching or being pitched? I don't think it was. I think it was like friendly. I think it was about like kids going to college type shit. OK. Is the vibe I was getting. I think because the American young men are in a crisis and I think it's so important. They got to go to college. That's going to fix the fucking problem. But anyway, they were in such a deep conversation when I got up. I was like, I can't I can't interrupt. But I did see Prof G. and all of his bracelets in all of his glory and his natural habitat, which was a real... You know, I was really starstruck. Okay, so was his bracelet story, was it kind of tribal? Were it organic elements in play, or was it a little more Cartier? Was it blingy, or was it? It wasn't, no, no, no. It was more, as you said, it was a little more Chris Martin. It felt a little more organic material. It was not love bracelets bolted on. I didn't see any big boy watches. It was a tasteful stack. as far as that can be tasteful. Okay, so if that is your direction, Chris Martin's wrist, or who's the other? Oh, God, Kieran Culkin, the worst of all time. Kieran Culkin, he's got, that's when the stack is too stacked. That's when you, restraint needs to be in order. Sometimes the stack can be too stacked. Well, Kieran Culkin, one of the most annoying people on planet Earth. Gifted actor. Most actors. He does that thing where he's like, my kids made them for me. I'm like, you look stupid. I don't care if your kids gave them to you. I don't care if you're a 45-year-old man with bracelets halfway up your arm. I don't care if they have sentimental value. Put them in your pocket. You know, put them in your back pocket. Yeah, my kid drew a fucking dinosaur. I'm not going to get it tatted on my ass. Exactly. It's just, it's too much. It's too much. But anyway, I'm happy to be here. Flight was smooth. Lovely. Lovely. Okay. And that's it. I had a big night on Tuesday. J.Crew. We had a J.Crew party. What were we celebrating? Just fashion week? Yeah. Spelled W-E-A-K. W-E-A-K if you're doing it wrong. Absolutely. But I finally got to...

build with martha stewart which felt auntie she auntie was wearing a j crew roll neck and i i've sat next to her at something before but she has this like boss gay that sort of runs interference it's a it's a great investment on her part this time she was gay gayless from what i could tell in the room So I was able, Pierce and I were both able. So she had nobody to point her in the direction and whisper in her ear, Chris Black approaching, DQ's pulling weeds. Get out of here. Abandon ship. I don't, obviously we just, you know, traded pleasantries. It wasn't like it was some deep discussion, but it really is incredible how good she looks. It's shocking. considering her age. Obviously, she's invested time and money into looking like this, but it's paying off, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Money well spent. Money well spent. She might have gone to Kris Jenner's facelift doctor before Kris Jenner did. She's mother, as they say. She invented this shit. Y'all are just trying to keep up. Yeah, I think I saw her. She posted a photo. Six days ago, it says, where she's holding finger smudges on my serum bottle cover. As if the reason why she looks like this is because of the Elm Biosciences serum product. I'm sure they do a great job. Great product. If Elm's team is listening, drop the serum over to the house. I'd love it as part of my routine. But, yeah, her skin is much smoother than yours or mine, and you take care of yourself. I mean, somewhat. I'm a sun worshiper, as you know. I love to bake. It doesn't help. Martha feels like the kind of person who's going out. Martha's got a chin on her that could cut some soft tofu. Don't pander to me. You look at it from the wrong angle and it looks like a mirror. You can see yourself in the tofu. Beautiful. That must have been thrilling. I'm assuming you didn't pitch her. Did you grab her phone and make her subscribe to our podcast for her? I did not do that. I did not do that. I kept it brief and professional.

professional uh as best as best that i could yeah long money brother long game long money but i i yeah i'm i'm feeling a little fried right now but i think that by the time you and i reunite tomorrow to celebrate um the murder of this guy that everybody's talking about what's his name charlie kirk and i i gotta i gotta keep it 100 with you i'm not gonna celebrate i'm joking i'm gonna keep it 100 with you i didn't really know who that was. And this is why I was arguing this in the group chat. I was literally like, I sort of know who this is, but you guys were acting like he's a household name. And then you pulled up data to prove that I would say he's somewhat of a household name in Republican households. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I would say so. I'd say so. I'd say two thirds of the American population is aware of him. And I guess that would potentially consider him to be. household name overall but yeah i think i think obviously people who pay attention to politics people who pay attention to click rage bait on social media people in the political space especially right-wing conservative you know he's he's the timothy chalamet or the austin butler of hold on hold on did charlie kirk do subway takes and i missed it yeah his take was nope they shouldn't let black people on this train Hey, these ice raids are good. 100% disagree. Strangely enough, I get a lot of obviously extreme bleeding heart liberal content and creators, let's say, in my feed. But I literally, I mean, I recognized his face when I saw it, but I've never come across any of his content. Like I've never, obviously he's huge, but I just feel like in today's media landscape, it's very easy to sort of speak to your base and algorithmically not be. Sort of, you know, other people might not come across you if they don't express interest in other things. You know, it's an interesting. You've done a good job in your life not having his content appear and be a part of your everyday. Yes. Down my everyday struggle. Yeah, I somehow I mean, you you are definitely not the type of person who would click on like a guy owns 20 woke.

college students you know hour and 48 minute long youtube you're right 17 million views that's not something you or i would ever click on i would avoid that i would but i i will say that the the the blood loss not to get gory well i've never seen anything like that that was a motherfucking that was a pro and i i i do think that this has been arterial hit brother one of the best days on twitter that I can, I mean, in maybe years, it could be all time. This is better than Luigi, I would say, as far as content goes. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, we were discussing it earlier. It really was, it's the 9-11 of Twitter. Somebody tweeted, like, today was a schizophrenic day on Twitter. I felt, you know, I couldn't put the phone down. And I was seeing... every single because usually you get one take or the other take yeah i was seeing so many different takes i was you know yeah yeah went from black and white to full technicolor of all the opinions and all the takes being thrown at me it was tj and the technicolor takes yeah i mean you know usually the algo it has like it has the guardrails it knows what's going to happen what level you know like Hey, this guy really likes watching, you know, gnarly shit. He wants to see guys getting eaten by wild animals and, you know, helicopter drone strikes and blah, blah, blah, and plane crashes. And then this person, not so much. They like a little, you know, they want to see the censored light version of it. They want to see puppies playing with a baby seal or whatever it might be. This one, they took the whole, it was a big, they threw it all in a bowl and shook it up. And we all. We're feeling the tremors. That's a great way to put it. Toss my little salad, my mental salad. I'm sure it will continue. I'm sure it will continue. The amount that everyone cares is shocking. Like I've seen a lot of impassioned tweets being like murder is never okay. And I would just like to say the answer to all of these questions always is who cares in this kind of instance. Like how you have feelings about this either way is sort of shocking to me if they're not a joke.

right right i mean you know this is this is somebody who got people fired up for a living totally and i mean you know when somebody like that is you have live footage yeah it's crazy of him being murdered and you see you see that gusher it's something that you've never seen before it really it's like a 911 or a challenge you know it's like you're watching a space shuttle take off and go to mars and you watch it explode it's worse than that though You know, it's faces of death in high definition. The shit that you used to see when you were in high school and you'd watch, you know, gnarly gory shit or Rotten.com or whatever, and it'd be some pixelated... Guantanamo Bay thing. This is 4K, baby. This is Gusher and 4K, and I think a lot of people were not ready to see that, and it was served up on a platter. Don't talk about your saved searches. That's something different. One take that was servicing that I saw a lot was this is a distraction of a false flag to take the attention away from Trump and Epstein and the book and all the photos. I thought I was to take attention away from Hilary Duff's return to music, but you're saying that this could have been, wow, I've got to say I'm reeling from that information. Who is Hilary Duff's enemy? Do you think this is Taylor Swift? She said, take the shot. Take the shot. She said, go. Who is worried that Hillary is going to potentially ruin? I don't know exactly, but I think her powers are still untapped in many ways. And I think there are people that are afraid. You don't think Demi Lovato is responsible for that? I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to point any fingers at any other of the pop girlies. But I do think Sabrina Carpenter is threatened. But if we're playing real life succession. You think Sabrina could be involved somehow? Well, that's her OG. I mean, that's her OG. I didn't know that. In a lot of ways. Oh, that's from the Disney Channel. Well, not actually. I just mean like Duff did it first, you know? Duff hit first is what I'm saying. Duff did hit first, and I didn't know that she had a new song. She's coming back. She's coming back. She's coming back. No, there's not a song yet. I think she's just cooking in the lab.

is what i'm okay is what i've understood is that news yes huge we all assume that hillary duff has sort of you know in between having babies or pilates or whatever she's sort of like hillary hillary duff looked good hillary duff looks good i think the fan base is just old enough to want that nostalgia You know, right to their veins. Yeah, but I think what she needs to do is tap into the pog market because she has unlocked a new ability and skill set. Damn, not a bad idea. All right, so she should be opening for Nelly type shit is what you're saying. I'm saying Sexy Red, Hilary Duff, you know, do something, you know. Do something. Girl. Do something. City girls winning, you know, make her city girls. Okay, so you want Hillary stuff. Hillary Duff is a studio city city girl. Studio city girl is what I, I don't think it's quite the same. Studio city girls stay winning. We stay winning. It's our summer. All right, we have a guest today. Michael Grinbaum is joining us, correspondent at the New York Times, but he wrote a very popular book that everyone's talking about all summer, Empire of the Elite. It's about the sort of. Conde Nast dynasty, a character on How Long Gone, whether we like it or not. But Michael's been doing TV. He's been everywhere. I'm glad that he's lowered himself to join us today on How Long Gone. He's done some, he did a little fresh air or something like that, you know, so. A little, something light, a little fresh air. That's cute. That's cute for you. And full disclosure, Chris Black is a employee of Conde Nast. We do have to say that legally. Michael's team told me that. Yeah, Michael and I can talk about the payment system at Condé Nast, the famous payment system there. What a great way to kick things off with him. All right, let's give him a Zoom. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world,

writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money.

When life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code HOWLONG. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code HOWLONG with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy, but still put together. I don't look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This is exactly how Terry Gross introed me into our interview. So I'm feeling very comfortable here. Look, Terry's the OG. She ain't having that much fun over there, but she's doing the job. I sense a little sarcasm with that message, Michael. What do you...

oh no that was that was not derogatory that was that was pause that was okay when you did that where did you go to a studio and talk to her remotely like she's in okay so she's based in philadelphia so it's almost all remote right so like i went to like a studio like in midtown But I kind of liked it because there's no video like she's just like in your ear and you record for like it was like an hour, 45 minutes and they cut it down. It's like kind of like an edited thing. You're like, you're like, babe, we got we got to run here. I don't got hour 45. That's Joe Rogan shit. What do you mean? Hour 45. But she's no, but she like totally because she kind of gets you get through your talking points after 20 minutes and then she starts like, you know, zeroing it on like that. So tell me about your childhood and like you suddenly you're on the couch. So it's like a very effective. Very effective message. I just remember I did an NPR podcast, whatever, 10 years ago, and I remember being so – it wasn't that one. I'm blanking on what it was. Maybe it was something – Planet Money. Anyway, I was in a studio, and it was the same thing, but it wasn't like the Terry Gross recognizable soothing voice in my ear. It was somebody I just never heard of. So I felt a little – You had a regional specialist? Yeah. I mean, it was – it just felt far away, I guess is what I'm saying. It didn't feel like, I think because of the familiarity with her, it immediately feels like close. It's like your aunt or someone like calling you up or something, you know, like, you know, she's got that. But, but I feel like I've got, you know, you, you guys, you know, I feel very, I feel very comfy heading into this interview. So, well, you're wearing, you're wearing a sweater that really. telegraphs comfort i have to say you're going daddy mode and i like yeah why are you giving hashtag cozy vibes right now michael what's up is it is it chilly in the nyc uh you know that onion like mr autumn man uh like that's you since i have been in college my friends have sent me that because apparently i look exactly like mr ottoman i'm a big shawl collar proponent i feel like

And not a cardigan. I'm actually anti-cardigan, but I love a shawl collar. I have to say it looks... I have tried this over the years, and it does not work for me. It does, as Mr. Autumn Man, I have to say, it works great. Is it hard to find? How many shawl-collared, non-cardigan sweaters do you come across? It feels like a little bit of a niche item. Is there a brand that you lean on? Yes. No, they are actually hard to find. I had a J.Crew one from like... 15 years ago that i kept forever and like patched up the elbows and it finally got it just like finally collapsed like totally deteriorated on me so this one that is a good point because i ended up ordering this one off the polo website i could not find it in a physical store so i feel like it's these are kind of like deep cuts you know you gotta you gotta i think that they're deep cuts at a certain price point And then I think when you go to the Brunello level, all of a sudden, Laura Piana, Brunello, Cuccinelli, they got every color. They got different cuts. They got different sizes. Maybe for book number two, we'll hit the outlet, the Laura Piana outlet. Shaw Collar is a rich guy thing. I don't know if you know that. Also sounds like a children's book author from the 70s. Shawl Collar in the studio today. Sorry, go ahead. Are you from the East Coast, Michael? I am, yeah. I grew up outside Hartford, Connecticut. Yeah, I think maybe it's either a rich guy thing or a very East Coast. I think that's the crossover. Is there an energy that you're trying to convey with the Shawl Collar? Is there a mood board in your mind or how it affects your personality? It's funny. 9 a.m. is a little early. I am not a... I, like, live... my i'm very like collegiate hours like when i was writing this book i would like you were like a morning joe guy i thought you were up at like six as my editor will tell you that is absolutely not true in fact um i was in london so i was working out from london for a few months and it was incredible because i'd like

The time difference is amazing for someone who likes working late in the day. I'd be filing stories. My editor would wake up. He'd be shocked because typically they're calling me at 10 a.m. to see where I am. You have literal borrowed time. We have to move to London. I just can't wake up early enough, so we got to relocate. The time zone thing is really hurting me. So when you go to Hawaii, you're fucked. Oh, when I'm in L.A., I'm fucked. And also, I lived in L.A. for a couple months this year. And I always used to make fun of actually, Chris, you and I talked about this for that. I did this piece about how New York was becoming L.A. like after the pandemic. And I and I always make made fun of people in L.A. for like, you know, eating dinner at like six thirty or whatever it is. I moved there for like two months. I was like falling asleep at nine thirty at night. It was like done. It's the culture. It's the culture. And it's good for you if you don't like the action. You know, because you really you can find it if you want it, but it's not in your face in the same way it is in New York. And it was different pre-COVID. You think? Absolutely. I mean, there were nightclubs. Yeah, sure. Before COVID. Sure. Hollywood has no nightclubs. Just straight up. That is I mean, that is a big change. That is a big change. Why were you living? Did you come to London just to write or were you? Oh, so my my wife's a screenwriter, so she kind of ends up. like kind of working in all different places so i i kind of get the benefit of just like following her following her around oh okay so we got a little we got a little competitive household then it sounds like we're in the same field what's the word count versus word count looking like on a day-to-day basis every day every day at dinner you guys sit down and compare word counts before you dig in dig into your roasted chicken luckily luckily they are i would say there are different genres of writing you know so there's not the direct competition um We read each other's drafts. My wife's actually a great editor, although she says I'm very bad at being edited. I lash out in a way that I have to... Do you lash out at the person from your publisher, or do you just lash out at your wife when she's doing it to be nice? Whoever's giving you notes gets the claws. Gets the smoke. They can take it. We installed a rule where we couldn't read each other's drafts when we were in the same room because...

part of it was smart because for my wife, cause she writes a lot of comedy stuff. It was like, if I wasn't like laughing out loud, like that in itself was like this, like negative signal about shorty with a, Oh, that's, that's really funny. And then I would, and then I would have to be out of the room because like, I, I don't know. It was like, it was like two, the tension had like grown, grown too much, but we actually worked together pretty. We'd like kind of work on opposite ends of like a living room table. Uh, so like during the pandemic when we were like, kind of like locked at the scene. Yeah. unit you know we found like a peaceful working arrangement okay that's beautiful i'm glad you guys figured out where your boundaries are and you're able to work work around and through were you able to was it easier to figure out the the working writing schedule and and uh you know just atmosphere or was it easier more difficult to work out what we're going to get for dinner you know what i mean on postmates yeah no the postmates no that can that can create some major tensions yeah um Yeah. You don't always want soup five days a week, do you, Michael? Are you guys in Brooklyn or are you in the city? No, we live in the East Village. Oh, wow. You're a winner. I knew it. I knew it. Because I think that part of me was going to be like, this motherfucker is going to be like, Park Slope. But you said East Village like a man. With the shawl neck, you never know. That's true. The shawl neck could throw me off. Oh, I just do laps around Prospect every morning. So that threw me off. But East Village, there's so many options. It can be. debilitating honestly the dining options in the east village are some would say most diverse in the city there's so much all the time move over queens i feel like my biggest perk from here so i'm like a block from russ and daughters so because i can do like the 3 p.m on a weekday russ and daughters where you just like walk right we know we know the guy without job vibe don't worry we kind of mastered that here on how long gone we know all about it It's a it's a perk of having a flexible schedule. You can go to very, very busy restaurants at the right time when they're not very busy. The off peak East Village living like perks are, I would say, like top notch. And also, I feel like so when Chris, you and I talked like when when there was like this L.A. vibe coming into my neighborhood because I was getting like remedy place, like all these like kind of wellness centers.

And Jelina, Jelina, I always mispronounce it. Jelina. No, Jelina. Jelina's actually, we can get into it, but I go there relatively often because it's really nice. Like, it's very well done. And I love any business that does a fire insurance scam. That's one of my favorite. Like, I want to support you. If you successfully. scam an insurance company, then I'm going to support your restaurant until you close. Little Abbot Kinney Lightning, they call that. Yeah, yeah. It's a regional. But you're saying, I don't know if it's thriving as far as business goes, but you're saying you saw the stuff creeping in, and that's why you wrote that story. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because I, especially NoHo area, you were getting all, and there was like a Goop pop-up that opened, and this was like kind of like in the pandemic when... uh when people suddenly like the i called up resi and they they ran this like data analysis for me that found that the new york city reservations had gotten like 45 minutes earlier oh in aggregate uh you know over that period 6 p.m is the new 8 p.m data driven i just have to look at i have to look for reservations like a layman and see there's no tables at six o'clock hey siri give me resi on the line by the way the julina i thought the julina on bond street is like tick tocked out i think Like, it's like kind of – I find it not pleasant to eat there, actually. Every restaurant is tick-tocked out. Is there something in New York City that's not tick-tocked out, Michael? I'd love to hear about it. How about that matcha place across the street under the OVO store where they give out umbrellas because the line is so long? Oh, right. Like it's a Chanel store? Literally. What is that, like, poke place on bleaker that – Oh, that's not – that's this bowl. That's worth it. Yeah, it's not necessarily poke, but it is it is called fish bowl in their home country of Australia. So I could see how you would get there. You know what? I don't know the nuances of those bowls. I think I need more of a it's more of a miso salmon or sashimi. But I understand.

Kind of where you're coming from. It's poke-inspired accoutrements, though, Michael. You're not wrong there. But it's the busiest restaurant in New York. It's harder to sit down and eat your $20 bowl there than to eat at any real restaurant. Yeah, that is true. I kind of still do the OG Sweetgreen lunch. Welcome home, Michael. They have a great new autumn menu. See, the thing about the menu changes at Sweetgreen, if you're a real head, you don't even glance at those because you've got your shit locked in. I mean, I wait all year for the corn elode bowl. That's like the highlight of my culinary year. You have it marked on your calendar like your wedding anniversary? There was one year where... You've got the corn advent calendar. You're peeling the kernel off every day. There was one year where it just didn't show up. Maybe there was like a corn shortage or something. And I was like, I think I might have emailed the head media contact to be like... Oh, I'm like, you know, I'm a New York Times reporter. I'm curious what's going on with this corn elote. No comment. No comment. So you're throwing your dick around trying to see what's up with the elote ball. For the record, I was, you know, I don't pull that card out that often. But like when it comes to the sweet grain, like menu choices, like you got to. Dude, that's important. Yeah, you got it. I mean, the flavor of elote. undeniable i agree as a california corn eater michael we all had a lot of questions about the fries and you know i think that i think that somebody had to ask them and i'm glad that you were able to have that direct line of communication much like any other fry in the world they just don't deliver well hate that also i feel like the menu has like skewed Probably because they need to, like, raise their margins or something. But it's, like, skewed less healthy. Like, fries. They're, like, adding a lot of, like, breaded meats. I think everything's being affected by the protein maxing trend that has taken over our lives. Where, you know, I was at lunch with a friend the other day. We had a full lunch. And then he got a smoothie after because he needed more protein. And he looks good. It's clearly working. But I'm like, I can't have a smoothie on a full stomach.

Like, I would rather raw dog the powder than have it. Yeah, I just don't understand. That's why you're not very buff, Chris. That's true. I mean, no pain, no gain, brother. Choke it down. Choke it down. What's it called? Dry scooping? Oh, yeah, dry scooping. That's right. But, yeah, I think the proteins affected the menus, Michael. I think that's a big part of it at all those kind of places especially because, like, that's sort of like. hard-working lunch bro like midtown guy is the number one protein lover they i i think they don't do like a parachute drop of david bars like into midtown for all the the bankers like i think that don't give them don't give don't they're listening don't give them any free ideas we've given them enough fucking free press over there david i need a restock by the way if you're listening because i do eat that shit i got you chris Yeah, you get a blueberry and fudge stack, put them together. Oh, twisted. Have you tried? Have you tried? Have you tried them, Michael? I tried one David Barr after reading like an FT story about them or something like that. Sounds about right. And I was I mean, I don't know if they're friends of the pod, but like I was OK on it. I felt like, well, did you leave? I think if you're OK on it until you see the calorie to protein ratio and you're like. Well, you know what? Maybe this blueberry pie tastes a little better. All things considered, no NPR. It's a good value prop. It's a protein prop. It's a protein prop. Okay, let's talk a little bit of the book. I know that you were doing a press run of podcasts and TV and all that stuff a month or two ago when the book actually came out. Sorry for the wait and the delay. but you were doing a lot of, you know, I guess in July, a couple months ago, you were talking, everyone wanted your take on Anna Wintour leaving, and now that enough time has passed to where her quote-unquote replacement has been replaced, or at least announced. What's the take? What's the thoughts? Are you jealous? Do you think it should be you instead of her? So, well, first of all, it was super gracious of Anna to abdicate her job two weeks before my book came out.

uh that was like a real uh and you coordinated that with her team i assume oh yeah no no we choreographed it all and and like anna it was super nice we were kind of we were on the red phone late night late night kind of getting that thing that got to get that thing it's like all right so like so so and somebody asked if i sent her flowers you know after that i did actually send her um a copy of the book and i i did it i i did it like by a uber courier or something because i thought that would be like kind of a conde touch you know it's all all class michael hand delivered uh which which i did not do uh um i should have done that for you chris actually that but i didn't you like did you like i feel like i sent you a note and you were like oh yeah i already got the galley and read it like two weeks ago you were like well i when i see something i like on instagram when i see something like that popping up I go to the source because I'm not going to bother you with it because you're the right. Like there's a PR person whose only job is to send that book to people like me. I go straight to them. I imagine you like Miranda Priestly style, like having your assistant, like, you know, go out and, you know, get you the copy on the train or whatever it was. You know, Michael, I wish I was sending my hot assistant with my green American Express card to Mulberry Iconic to buy all of the new titles every month when they come out. But sadly, that's not for the twins. Yeah. isn't doing that well. We're doing fine. We're doing fine. We do have a driver, but he's not on 24-hour call. When he drops us off, he doesn't stay outside. Events, events. We own the car, but we let him drive it. Those David affiliate links are going to add up, guys. They're going to add up. They're clicking. I was interviewed for a story at Airmail about the status galley. And how that's like a thing now. Right. And I'm part of, I admit it in my quotes, I'm part of the problem. Like, there's nothing I want more. Like, if I had Lena Dunham's new book right now, I'd be shitting on you haters, you know? But I don't. Is the galley the new screener, Chris? Since it's a physical object? I mean, to me, it's better because I don't care about movies. And I think that they... The screener feels a little more easily accessible to a wider crowd. No, but I think you're onto something about the tech.

The physical object, right? Yeah, you know, Larry David's kid's not going to post a screenshot of the TV. You know, some people like to, you know, they're like logging in to stream it or whatever. Some people like to see the watermark, you know, Jason Stewart watermark bouncing around on The Conjuring 2. No, but a picture of Sally Rooney, you know, on the deck of my boat while I'm vacationing. Exactly. But this started, I mean, at least I remember it starting with Kendall Jenner. honestly kendall jenner years and years ago what was that girl jason we were friends with her she did the show she was brandon wardell's friend she wrote that funny book that a purple cover oh god yeah we you asked me this like a year ago and i had to google it i forgot what it was she disappeared but that book basically sold because it was like kendall jenner on a yacht and you could clearly see the cover of the book So I think it's no different now. If you get it before, it's even better than if you have to buy it yourself. I think status galley plus shawl collar sweater is like the new stealth wealth. Or not so stealth wealth. But you guys sent a shitload of these out, though. I did. So, well, I wanted... It was funny. I mean, I wanted the book to go out. There were a lot of people who I wanted to read it. And then I also... felt like fashion world people in particular um can't read or no no no no so i'm a media i'm a media reporter but like i haven't actually reported on the fashion world so the vogue of my book which of course was like an important part of kind of yes story like that was probably the part i felt kind of like most vulnerable on right so like i kind of like I love Lauren Sherman and Line Sheet, and I wanted to make sure that she could get an early look at it and get her feedback. There were certain subculture demos that I wanted to make sure. Let's talk about the fact-checking process. Just how long that took, how aggravating it was, how much good stuff you had to remove.

by far the most painful part of the process but also in a funny way like so exhilarating so i i i hired an amazing uh former new yorker fact checker named samin gohar who was incredible and i look i've been i've been like i've been at the times for 17 years like i kind of was like okay like you know i'll fuck up a few things but you know i would get back these chapters it was like you know It was like someone had been fucking slaughtered on the screen. Like every single sentence was marked up. I also got my my book was a pack of lies. Like I had gotten just so much stuff. Just I misremembered. Everyone lied to me. Everything I said was a lie. I can't look like Epstein reports. It was all redacted after redacted page. Yeah, no, exactly. But in a funny way, it is like and so I'd never been through like a formal fact check before because at the times we just like. do our own quick fact check like we don't have like an outside person and um but in a funny way it was like kind of exhilarating because it's like someone engaging with your writing on such a close granular granular level and honestly it was a better book i mean not just not just yes now the book is true which is a good thing But I felt like she really like would challenge, you know, like, well, this sentence doesn't quite match up with this sentence from like four chapters earlier. And like it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was like and that was like a six to eight week process that I went through. And it was like right before the manuscript was due. So it was like a crazy kind of rush to the finish. But I had a good time with it. So you got a pre-edit before the editor edited it. Yeah, it was all kind of happening simultaneously, which is like a funny, funny thing, too. Like publishing is a weird. I mean, the whole book publishing process is like totally was totally new to me. And it's like a lot of like kind of waiting around. And then all of a sudden it's like a crazy rush to get the thing done. And, you know, suddenly you have like two weeks before we lock the whole thing. And like, I mean, that that is I feel like this is a there's some legalities that have to be avoided. You know, there's some stuff. There are people that are litigious in this book, for sure.

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Hi, Talk House Network listeners. It's your old friend, Nels Klein, from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer, and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston. South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. This episode is brought to you by Prime. What if you had one more chance with the one that got away? Sam, you came home. based on the best-selling novel from Carly Fortune. Every year after follows childhood friends Sam and Percy as they reunite in the dreamy, nostalgic lakeside town of Berries Bay. Love can be hard to find. So if you're lucky enough to find that person, never let go. A second chance at first love. Every year after, streaming June 10th, only on Prime.

Yes, I did have to track down. There is a story about now, of course, telling the story. I got to be careful. But Julian, the former maitre d' of the Four Seasons restaurant, who was kind of this notorious figure, he ended up getting like. I think found guilty of some sort of sexual assault or something where he was like groping patrons. He was like a sketchy guy. You got to get a table somehow. I mean, if he wants to, if he wants to give me a little tug and I get the corner, I'm fine with it. But I understand others aren't. I understand others aren't. Four Seasons in its prime, you know, hardest table in New York, especially for lunch. So this was a whole chapter about Art Cooper, like the legendary GQ editor who had like a permanent table at the Four Seasons and had died at the Four Seasons famously. Like right after he left Condé Nast. It's too cool. It's too cool to die there. It's too cool. I didn't know. I didn't know that this person died at the Four Seasons. Was it just like a heart attack or was it a choking to death? He had been doing some faddish exercise process and he was there with Dave Jachenko, who was like the men's journal editor, and they were having lunch. And it was like three months after he had left Condé. And I think, you know, he had a stroke. I mean, the funny thing is, like, I talked to his close friends who were like, yes, of course, it was tragic. But, like, there is no other way this guy would want to go than, you know, collapsing at, like, his favorite restaurant in the world. Oh, I would love. Oh, my God. That's like how I say I want to die in a helicopter. You know, I want to be going from JFK to the East River. You want to die in the Porsche Cayenne Delta 360 on the tarmac. You want to get fucking run over by an Emirates jet. Yeah, yeah. I want to get hit by another plane. Dying at the Four Seasons, but you're saying Julian... That's diamond status death. Yeah, that's diamond platinum. But you're saying that Julian had gotten in some trouble and maybe you had whipped that up a little bit? So, well, okay, so there was a former... No, no, no. So there was a former GQ editor who told me a story that he had, like, roped her in a car. It was like, you know, one of these fucked up things. So the lawyers were like, you've got to get a response from this guy.

So Julian's been off the map for like years and years. And I had a friend who used to have like a bunch of Four Seasons connections back in the day. He helped me track down Julian. I sent him a note. My phone rings at like one in the morning in New York. Julian is in South Korea on like some kind of weird like. tour or like like culinary tour around there or something like that yeah that's what that's what i tell my that's what i tell my the people looking for me when i'm doing some sex tourism as well so i totally get that so no comment but um but he calls me and he's like hey and he's like you know he's very he's like a maitre d's that he's like oh hey i hear you're looking for me and so i kind of relay to him like this somewhat you know pretty harrowing story about him like you know being very handsy He's like, whoa, it sounds like your book's got lots of gossip in it. Can't wait to read it. Send me a copy. You've got to send me a copy when it's done. That's why the greats stay great. He's unfazed. Very Lydia Tar of him to fade away into Asian obscurity and then just say, yeah, sounds like a great book. Yes, I grabbed that. Congratulations on all your hard work. That's actually really funny that that's the response. I did goose that chick, yes. So I do have, yeah, so I do have the very unflattering story about Julian, who, like, clearly was not denying, by the way, any of the bad behavior. Like, you know, I think maybe he was trying to get, maybe he's trying to embrace our post-cancellation moment or something. But, you know. Oh, well, let's get into that. Is that where you think we are? I mean, Spacey was at Cannes this year. Spacey, look, Spacey, I say it all the time, exonerated on all charges. exonerate it on all charges say we're post entirely and i think that like a lot of people went down who deserve to go down um but i this is more like a general comment that i feel like i see a lot of people kind of coming back who are i just feel like there's a lot of people I went to a book party for Bruce Weber's new book. And I'm upset that I had to miss that because I was at Pamela Hanson's, which was the same night. Oh, that's right. It was like Battle of the 90s. Yeah, but Bruce, and I've said this before and I'll say it again, gay stuff just doesn't count in the same way in the public eye. It doesn't, whether that's fair or not, it's just true.

Like people are kind of like Bruce Weber made hot firefighters from Iowa feel uncomfortable. And it's like, OK, like that's not that's not. A sentence to death, I guess, is what I'm saying. So I'm going to invoke my journalistic neutrality card here. Of course. But what I will say, observationally, is that I went to the Bruce party, which, by the way, I just want to shout out. No, hold on. To be clear, you're complicit by going to the party. But we can get into that offline if you want. Okay. But, you know, as a reporter, you know, it's my responsibility to, like, have a front row seat. like what's going on in the culture. You're just at work. You're just admiring that beautiful new volume from Toshen. It's your job. And it's Joe Budden's job to go watch Chris Brown live in concert as well for journalistic reasons. I get it. I would say that there is, there was like Calvin Klein showed up at the end. The OG. I saw the pictures. I saw the pictures. Yeah. Had like a nice hug moment with Bruce. I felt like there were a lot of, you know, I mean, a lot of mainstream, you know, fashion editors who were there. And I don't know. I mean, you know, I just think, look, I think, look, other people who still think what. you know, Bruce is accused of was problematic. Definitely. Um, but I'm just saying, like, I think there was a time a few years ago where like, nobody's even hosting a book. So that, that's kind of what I mean about like the tolerance, you know, about a price on seeing those two Queens hug after making all those great images. They gave us Bruce and Calvin together gave us a lot. That is literally like a blueprint for how to make clothes look glamorous and cool. And I think that that is. powerful and it's tough it's also new generations care way less than we do so if they see these images on tumblr or or you know pinterest or whatever they don't give a they don't know who took they don't care they they find out and then it's like it's all about the pictures and like the glamour of it all like i don't think it's about

stuff that happened kind of or also just enough time has passed yeah yeah yeah enough time has passed i also think that there is like a return to glamour right now like i think people are kind of thirsty for that yeah valentino tried to bring back studio 54 last night so that's it's it's it's a sign for sure i just think like i mean the world is so fucked up in other ways it's like well why like maybe we need a little more beauty and a little more like aesthetic like joy like in our lives and like i think like even like that's why we podcast michael i mean we should talk about because like it's so funny only it's so funny so my book has been often put in this like series of like grayden's memoir the keith mcnally memoir the barney's book that just came out like last week um and it's funny right because i i hinted in my book like a year late so like it easily could have come out like the year but well not so easily because i had to write it but um but uh like you know it's funny how these cultural moments happen and i do think i mean i don't think it's coincidence that there's like this to me it's also about a yearning for the monoculture Like that's a topic that I definitely that's no, that's very real. I mean, I watched the VMAs the other night and it was like, all I could think about was like, no one, no, every person performing has fans that know them and don't know anyone else that's playing. If that makes sense. Like it was just, there's no, there's no sort of. young blood here to see my guy and then that's it yeah i just i i think you're right and i think some of this stuff is glamorous and it's also like yeah you're right it was a time when everybody knew what this stuff was yeah well at least like everyone you could be part of the same cultural conversation one thing i've heard twice in the last two days like from very disparate voices is i i wish there was a big sunday hbo show on right now that we could all be like talking about And I feel like the last one that did that was White Lotus because they parceled out week by week. But to me, with shows that, first of all, there's not a lot of shows on right now that I think people are super into. But when you've got the binge series where everybody's watching on different schedules, it takes away that kind of common conversation that we used to have.

where we were all invested in a certain story. Yeah, that's why sports is the only successful media format on streaming television because you have to watch it live. Yeah, I mean, I guess Succession, Industry, White Lotus, those are the only ones I can think of that people cared about like that, where it was like you waited every week. Yep. But I also it seems there must be data. I mean, it just seems like the obvious thing to do if the show is good to create that kind of momentum and do it that way and make people wait. But they do it so sparingly. It must it makes me believe there must be data proving it doesn't work. I mean, part of it might be the numbers thing, because I think about, OK, shows like Succession or like Mad Men. Right. Which like I think in like our world, you know, like everyone's watching, talking about like the audience is actually pretty narrow. Right. Like. you know like i mean the funny thing is i used to look at like ratings reports and like big bang theory reruns would be like the most watched shows in the country you know um but that said like i i feel like there's a certain i don't know there's just something nice about having like that common conversation and like um you know i don't know i'm trying to look at the fall schedule and see what's coming up i i don't know there's like that mark ruffalo show i haven't watched that yet Well, actually, on the topic of film and television, I know that you're a bit of a Devil Wears Prada connoisseur and fan. Oh, yes. What do you think about the reboot? Are you feeling good or are you feeling a little weary about what it's going to be? I'm feeling negative. Okay, well, let me say this. Me too. That's kind of my resting heart rate, so go ahead. Okay, so I think the original Devil Wears Prada is one of the best movies ever made about work. Period. And careerism. I think that's fair to say. And my take, which maybe is not such a hot take anymore, but is that her friends are the villains of that movie. where they're like, oh, don't do your, like, high-powered job. Like, come to my, like, art opening or whatever. Damn, that's actually true. Be the closest to you sometimes trying to pull you down to their level when you're shining. But you also have to remember to have fun in this business, you guys. That's why we got into it. Yeah, she goes to Paris for Fashion Week. Isn't that fun? I'm just saying, like, she's, like, she's at, like, the top of, she's at, like, the most cutthroat, like, industry in this, like, super intense competitive job.

And her friends are like, oh, like, you know, like, why are you working so late? And, like, what is Adrian Grenier's, like, he wants her to eat his grilled cheese or something like that. He got the Jarlsberg. He spent a lot of money on that, y'all. I thought you were ahead. Come on, Michael. You got Jarlsberg. Jarlsberg. I don't think any reboot is good. Like, I think it's basically impossible to sort of. I mean, I can't think of one. Godfather 2, Chris. Come on, Godfather 2. You know I've never seen that. Predator 2. I'm saying that when something is this big and this popular and this sort of classic and still referenced in pop culture all the time, you can do your best, but it's going to be really tough not to sully the good name. It also doesn't matter in just like that awful show. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Watched every episode. They know you motherfuckers are going to watch Devil Wears Prada 2, regardless of if it's a 10% or a 99% on Rotten Tomatoes. No, that's true. That's true. So the part that bums me out about the sequel, and actually this makes me think about something with my book, it's that I don't want to see Miranda Priestly struggling in the digital media world. Like, sure, like, yes, that is what would happen, and that's what happened to Anna. But, like, so my book, like, I... I could have done my book where it was like half the rise of Condé Nast and half the fall of Condé Nast. And I ended up doing only like a chapter or two at the end about kind of like the full decline. And like, yes, it's like an interesting story about how they missed the Internet. And I tried to get a lot of details in there. But like, honestly, I didn't want to live like like part of the joy of the book was like marinating in the moment of like power and glory. And as as like problematic as that moment could be at times. But. Devil Wears Prada, what's great about that film is seeing them with the town cars and jetting off to Paris and how glamorous that world is. And Miranda Priestly starting her sub stack just doesn't strike me as compelling cinematic material. It doesn't strike me as anything. I couldn't agree more. They created a universe and a world that you really felt comfort and enjoyment living in. Why show anything but that?

like rarely has looked as good on film as it does in devil's product like that opening sequence where she's getting dressed we need more escapism y'all let's not forget the movie where justin timberlake played the gq editor that that was that's also glamorizes the business quite well i think i don't want to get into the specifics but you know he's like jet skis to work across the hudson river is that right that's right that's how you get to work right at gq that's so hot that's how yeah when i when i go to condo and asked once every six months i only take the jet ski It's a Sea-Doo, but I've done some aftermarket work to it, so it gets me there pretty fast. Okay, Michael, you mentioned the fictional Miranda Priestly sub-stack, you know, go in Tina Brown mode. What do you think about sub-stacks, paywalls, Patreons, free stuff? You know, where are you looking at in that whole world right now? I actually love Tina's sub-stack, in part because she's just, I mean, she's such a good writer. What I like about Substack is that it makes me have hope for the written word. Because in my mind, the Substacks that have actually succeeded and have actually created revenue streams tend to be the ones that are really well written. They have a distinctive voice. Are you low-key shouting out Barry Weiss right now? Sorry, sorry, sorry. Distinctive voice. Racist. Couldn't help myself. I'm currently reporting for The Times about how Barry Weiss is on the cusp of taking over CBS News. CBS boss, news boss. I mean, I think you're right about Substack in that way. I think Tina Browns, which is one I pay for, is good because she comes from an era that was good. Right. I think she probably is treating it with the same rigor and attention that she would have Vanity Fair or whatever, and that's the difference. doesn't have those capabilities but they might have a lot of eyeballs that care what they have to say that just doesn't mean i'm going to be interested in myself i'm trying to think here because like the ones i pay for i mean maybe this is my own bias right so like i i pay for emily sunberg like i think she has like a unique voice she's got like a sensibility that feels coherent in the way that like a magazine does i learned something from him that's the thing i actually whether it's something i need to know or not i i never open that and don't

come away with something uh caitlin phillips has her gift guide substack which i which i like is filled with the most amazing recommendations and like obscure kind of like literary decorating tips and i find that like something i can't find anywhere else but are there okay are there substacks that are succeeding that are like poorly written and kind of like just like don't have a good voice to them oh yeah oh there's plenty of those i mean i don't know if poorly i'm not going to say poorly written as like a fake writer myself but i'm going to say that it's like i think that there is it because the barrier of entry is so low there's a tendency for it to be for some people like a diary spewing and i think for that to be compelling you have to be very good yeah and i think that a lot of but you don't have to be very good to find your peers that are willing to pay $5 a month to read you talk about, like, you know, your boring daily life in Brooklyn. Yes, I agree with that. I agree with that. Like, I just, I think, I feel like the diaries are going to fade, though. Like, it can't just be Thought Catalog, you know? Like, nobody's going to pay for Thought Catalog. My king, I love Thought Catalog. What a moment in time. What a moment in time. Well, what do you think about not paying? First up, I've had a theory, and I've said it a couple times over the years, that the advertising model is not really failed, and it would be saved if advertising just became great again. I think ads of yore were very interesting and luxurious and fun in certain magazines. You would be into the ads just as much as the editorials and the stories the same way people watch commercials or watch the Super Bowl for the commercials. Here's what I would love for Substack. Not to be too radical here, but what if like... a bunch of writers who i like who have interesting things to say we're all packaged into like one hold on hold on michael are you saying are you saying like a run club for writers like a magazine is that what you mean like just like there's like maybe like what you know some beautiful advertising but why split my five bucks a month with 13 other people in ridgewood when i can keep it all to myself you know what i mean i think that the reach like i think emily's hot emily's definitely hired

people like Laura Riley's hired people. I think if you can get someone great to do something you can't do in your same realm and expand the reach, I think that makes a lot of sense. But that really becomes also, I think the whole joy of making money on Substack is you can sort of... sit in your fucking room or sit in your hotel room and bang it out and get your money every month no matter what once you start having contributors they're late you got somebody's got to edit it somebody's got to become a manager now it's a different yeah it's a different thing because i think substack is sold as this sort of like Oh, you can just do it. Anybody can do it, you know? And I think once you make it harder, it could be better, but it's harder. Yeah, no, it's a good point. So I don't, I, this was reported somewhere that Mark Guiducci, who's the new Vanity Fair editor, like approached Emily about, about how, I don't know this myself, but I read it, I think it was in Semaphore, about like. you know writing for vf and it's like the the financial model for emily makes no sense right i mean she's probably clearing like half a million a year right now on on her sub stack like well emily emily does stuff like that for the same reason i do stuff like that it's because you like it and it's a different thing because you don't need to make money from it like if you if you like she writes three whatever she'll do like this big gq the zen story for example or whatever it's fine to do that when you don't need to pay your rent right that money because you can take your time and just do it for the love of the game and it makes you better and people see it different people see it But when you're trying to put together a living doing shit like that, it's not fun. It's hard. It's really hard. I don't get paid to DJ at Burning Man. I do it because it's fucking... For love of the game. It's a gift, really. It's a gift. But I know what you mean. That's why I DJed at Burning Man, too. You kept it low. So you got it. You didn't post on social, which is big of you. I think that was smart. No, it wasn't for the clout.

It was just for personal... We don't want your employer to see that. We had Graydon Carter on the pod a couple years ago. He insulted our tattoos and attitudes and things like that. Had a great time. Loved him. I know you talked a lot about him in the book. Obviously, he's on the cover. Do you think that the Graydon and Donald Trump have a little will they won't they energy? Obviously not a literal sexual relationship, but kind of like, you know, do you think they secretly talk to each other a little bit on the low kind of thing in a competitive way? So I actually address this in the book. So, no, I do not think they talk to each other. I don't think there's any coordination, but I do think there is. Forgive me, Graydon. I think there's a bit of like. kind of game recognized game between the two of them totally yeah i that's i think that's fair a jordan bird scenario well i would love if they had an instagram chat where they kind of just you know send memes to each other but that's probably a bridge oh you're not on grayden's close friends he shares it sometimes i can't screenshot it anymore though i don't think people are quite aware of like how about how entangled their two careers are like grayden wrote the gq cover story of donald trump in 1984 which was like his first major national magazine exposure that led to Cy Newhouse commissioning The Art of the Deal as a book, which is like the first time he became like that was like a national bestseller. And then the other thing I discovered when I was like recording this out, because like I was like aware of the great Trump feud and like, you know, going back to the spy days and like short fingered Bulgarian and like that's all real. But when Graydon took over Vanity Fair in 1992, he actually kind of. Histon made up with Trump like they kind of like had a piece and like Trump came to like one of the White House correspondence parties they did early on and like Graydon went to his wedding to Marla I think I mean look if Trump's if Trump's inviting me anywhere I'm gonna go

It's just, how can you turn that down? It's sport at that point. Oh, totally. And like, I don't, again, I don't actually, I don't blame Graydon for any of this. Like Trump was like this pop cultural figure for, you know, like decades in a way. And of course, like who would ever known like where, where, where his life would have gone. But like the two of them in a funny, they're both in a way like these kind of like strivers who like created like Manhattan lives for themselves. And like, I don't know. It's just, it's a totally fascinating kind of like. uh pod to do it between the two of them you know i would say that i would say the biggest thing that sticks out to me is they both have just iconic heads of hair totally and they're they're different interesting they're different but they're both like i could recognize them as a silhouette And that's powerful from a branding perspective. Just on hair alone, their healthy competition. At your party, Michael, I was wearing this spy shirt that I've had for a while. And I was like, this is the perfect time to wear it. The only place people will understand this. And Graydon sort of acknowledged it, but then also, you know, he famously hates tattoos. So he was like, nice to see your tattoos again. Because everybody else is kind of wearing like a suit, which I normally would do. But I was like, this is my night. I can wear this shirt one time where people understand it. But you could have been wearing a Tom Ford suit. If your little tattoo was peeking out under the sleeve, he would still talk to you like a dock worker. His disdain for tattoos is something that I love. I think it's so awesome. I think it's so cool. It's fun to triple down on. Yeah, it's just such a cool thing to be like, nah, fuck that. The thing I'm most proud of is that none of my children have tattoos. It's just too cool. It's too cool. You know about all his rules for the office at VF? Like, I reported this out. So, like, rubber-soled shoes were not allowed. Sick. Because he could not deal with the squeaks. Like, that was totally verboten. Duncan, don't. I heard. I don't think this actually happened. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Somebody told me he fired an assistant because the assistant was drinking Dunkin' Donuts coffee at the desk. I'd fire an assistant for that. In Manhattan, if you're drinking Dunkin', if I have to look at that logo in my office, you're out. You're gone. There's a million people that will take this job. Get out of here. Sends a message. Can I say, by the way, speaking of post-cancellation, Scott Rudin, who, look, as far as I know from the reporting I've read, was like horrendous and a bully to people. But I remember reading a story and there was one example where Scott Rudin's assistant on the first day gets there. And Scott calls his office, and the guy picks up the phone, and he says, Scott Rubin's office. And he fired him. As you should. You can't do that to the rude dog. I was like, that's fireable. You can't do that to – he'll throw a phone at you. He's on his Naomi Campbell. You're working for the guy? You can't say Scott Rubin. He could have been nervous. He could have been nervous and just slip up, but we don't have room for that. in the powerful world of Hollywood and New York elite, you can get fired for having a Duncan refresher on your desk. Yeah, literally. I think all of that's fine. What do you think? Who's buying airmail? What do you think, Michael? Who's buying it? How about you guys? I don't, I'm like not super liquid right now. You mean like we're the buyers or what is our opinion? Who do we think? HLG buy, no, no, I was going to say you guys could buy it. Who's going to buy airmail? I think I love reading Armel. Like, I think there's such great, like, unexpected stories. There's no better place to get a salacious story about a private school that I can't pronounce. And, like, it's true fantasy land. Like, Vanity Fair, I feel like because the stories were so long, it would sort of have to be tagged to, like. british aristocrats that you like sort of are familiar with their names airmail because it's a little bit quicker it can just be like yeah this private school in the northeast like some shit went down and you need to read a quick thousand words about it and i always do and here's the top 10 coasters that you need for your study but i think that i like reading it too but i think that like when people say stuff like that's for sale i'm like well who's gonna buy like

How many buyers are there anymore? Like how many things can Penske buy and then lay off the staff? You know, I don't have a great answer for this, which is, I guess, not a not a great sign. But like, you know, look, I mean, I think it's a lot of talent there. I love that. I love the fact that they're even still doing long form journalism is and like and also kind of in a beautiful way. Like I love the photography and like it looks good. They spent I mean, I think that like. I think that's the thing about Substack too that bothers me is that it feels like no one puts in much effort to how it looks. I was joking with Jason about this. I would rather get the way Rachel sends out her newsletter and it's a BCC on Gmail. I like the way that looks better than the way Substack looks. And airmail, whether you like what they're talking about or not, it's presented very well. And I think that always is going to appeal to a certain person. There's got to be some literate billionaire out there who just wants to, like, have Graydon throw parties for him. Like, maybe that's the way it, you know. Donald Trump, he's the only one. He'll do it in a spite purchase, 50 cent style. I love a spite. I'll give you full price, but I'm the boss now. We have some changes, editorial changes. Okay, well, Chris, you brought up the party for his book. That was where you got to wear your Cool Spice shirt. And I wanted to talk to you, Michael, sort of about the importance of events back in the day versus now. Obviously, nowadays, that's a huge part of the business model of these magazines or, you know, the money you make from corporate sponsors for events and things like that is a big portion of it now that people don't buy magazines anymore. So one part, you know, events through the years and then also, you know, just some tips on aside from being famous. What are some ways that you would recommend for people to get into these elite events? Because a lot of people are left off the guest list who are quite famous. So Tina Brown was way ahead of the game, actually. When she was at the New Yorker in the 90s, she was putting together these conferences where New Yorker writers would come.

interview notable people in their field and like she had a really hard time getting condé to agree to that like to give her money for that like i think they just found that extraneous um which is sort of ironic because in a way like if you think about the vf oscar party or the vet gala like those are just marketing events for these magazines that like kind of became these cultural phenomena and um and this goes all the way back to so condé condé montrose vast the guy who started this company in 1909, he had a penthouse on Park Avenue in the 30s, in the 20s, where he would host these, like, they were like the VF Oscar parties of the day. Like, it would be politicians and movie stars and moguls and business people. Parties are in the bones, basically, of the company. I mean... Because if you think like what is a magazine in its best form should be like a printed form of a party, right? Where you're bringing together like a really interesting cast of people where you're sort of like finding fascinating characters from different walks of life and it's all there for you. And so the parties to me are like these IRL manifestations of like what a magazine does at its best. So, like, Tina tried doing that. Actually, I mean, Remnick, I got to give him credit, like, the New Yorker Festival, like, was kind of one of the early cases. That seems like a real moneymaker. That seems like an actual moneymaker. Vulture Fest, I think, actually makes money. Like, I think there are a few of them that do. Thanks to our friends at Chase or, you know, whoever is underwriting it. But regardless, they seem well attended and profitable. Yeah. And, like, so I think that. And also, I think. I feel like post-pandemic, there's been a real resurgence in wanting the real meetups. It's probably too sweepy in analysis. I had my book party at the old Frank Derry Conde cafeteria. I knew I wanted to have a fun book party, but also that was my white whale early on. I was like, I really want to do this. I'm in New York City. There's a lot of...

places that figure in conde lore i called up the royalton hotel where 44 was brian mcnally's restaurant that was a big conde hangout in the 90s and it's like under construction or something and i have to give shout out to the durst corporation uh uh which owns owns four times square and they were like it was so funny i called them up i'm like oh do you rent out spaces and they brought me in and they're showing me all these conference rooms and i'm like what about like the cafeteria and they were like oh Nobody ever asks about that. Like, yeah, sure. Like, sure. Yeah, you want to run it out? Like, sure. And the amazing thing is the tenant that now uses the old Conde Nast cafeteria is TikTok. That's a little too full circle. They got that after your party or they already had it while you were doing it? No, no. That is like TikTok is the anchor tenant at the old four times square. Got it, got it. And in fact, there were like TikTok employees who like I got LinkedIn messages after. They were like, oh, I saw this party happening and had no idea about, like, what this – they, like, have no idea about, like, the history of this – That's where I have my overnight oats every day, and Chris Black was there. Yeah. If you're in a Frank Gehry-designed cafeteria and you've – you kind of notice that. I mean, not that I've been in so many cafeterias, but I can say that that cafeteria looks a little different, you know? It's just amazing, like, if you think about – I mean, this is such a time capsule, but, like, the way, like, Gawker – in like the early aughts would like every day you'd get a report of like who was there and who was sitting next the greatest publication we've ever seen that i mean you know i miss it every day gawker stalker changed my life and it paved the way for dumois which has ruined our world so it's it's it's a gift and a curse i would say like dumois now it's like a restaurant is ruined immediately because there's instant reporting that celebrities are there and then tourists go there and blah blah Gawker Stalker was a little more. Just like TikTok. What was her name? Oh, my God. What was her name? Allison Julia. Julia Allison. Julia Allison. There was, like, Jason, there was this sort of, like, hot, like, tech-adjacent chick who was just relentlessly covered on Gawker. Like, New York famous, but I still don't know what she does. I don't know where she is, but for, like, three years of my life, I knew everything she did. And that is necessary. Sounds a little Olivia Mom-esque. No, she was way less, like.

there was no fame really it was just like new york like hot single job in terms of hot reporter chicks she is now married to a very prominent harvard law professor i knew she would look i knew she wasn't going to marry no brokies but i'm saying that's i'm glad to see that julia landed on her feet because i remember once during that period being like kind of drunk and on coke at a bodega and she was in the bodega and i was kind of like I like visibly looked funny because I was like, damn, that's Gawker's own Julia Allison out getting a fucking Fiji water right now. But that that sort of New York micro stuff, just there's nowhere for that to exist. It's all. bigger than that now. You're actually making me realize, like, when I was talking about the sub-stacks that I like, they're all, like, New York is a small town sub-stacks, right? Yeah, that's true. Like, Sunberg is like, it's like, oh, there's a new restaurant opening at this hotel. It's like, it's actually this sort of hyper-local stuff that you used to find on, like, back in the... Gothamist? Yeah, or, like, I love Evie Greave. Like, I don't know. Oh, Evie Greave. Evie, shout out to the Evie Greave. I sent a link last night. Chris French Cleaners is closing. Unbelievable. 65 years. Best dry cleaner in New York. It is for me. I didn't know about this. Evie Greve is cool because it's on Blogspot. Like, still. Like, they've made no design. But, Jason, the one, like, the Angel that covers, like, L.A. food stuff and Found, like, those are, like, local to... Eastside Rag. I mean, Found is New York, too. Eastside Rag. Like, that L.A. stuff is, if you get it, it's the same level of, like... sort of L.A. as a small town. Yeah, that kind of stuff, it's good to see a return to that because back then, if you knew it was going to be about a thing, you would read it front to back regardless of if it's good or not just because you're like, oh, I just learned something. That's all it is. It could be useless information, but I always read it. Not to spoil the purity of Evie Grieve, but it's just occurring to me. That's like an affiliate goldmine waiting to happen.

I mean, I love I love that website. And it's it's sort of like the way that I would read New York magazine when I didn't live in New York. I feel like if you come to New York enough and you read Evie Grieve, you kind of know what's going on in a very certain world. Totally. It's sort of like playing. He like takes shitty pictures on his like digital camera. It's all just like very normal. We could do this forever. Michael, thank you for joining us on How I'm Gone Today. The book. is in stores everywhere. It's been in stores for a while. It's a summertime read. Full-side read. We've still got two more months. Have we mentioned the title? I've got to get a plug in here. Empire of the Elite. We mentioned it on the intro. We missed you on the intro. I'm not going to make them Google your last name because they'll spell it wrong. So we've got to give them the title. We've got to give them the title. Empire of the Elite. Thank you for joining us. It was a pleasure. Overdue. The book is great. And hopefully I'll see you soon. Thanks, guys, so much. Thank you. Later, Michael. Have a good one. Just one look and then I knew that all I longed for long ago was you. Beside me waiting, wanting only to be loved. It seems now our love started long ago. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Default terms at mintmobile.com.