072. - Michael Williams

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

What's up, Big Bird? How are you feeling, King? Feeling pretty well. I took a rose edible earlier today. It's hitting me a little heavier because I'm on an empty stomach. Jason, what's the deal with all this midday drug use? I don't know if this is good or bad for the program. For the program being the How Long Gone Podcast. I don't know either. It's very rare that I'll take an edible in pod, but I usually will take the edible and then it kicks in afterwards. It usually takes like an hour or something for an edible to kick in. Oh, I see. So you think you're slick and you got it all timed out right. I got it all timed out right, but it's not an exact science of the edible. Sometimes it won't hit you at all. Hold on. Are you telling me that drugs are not an exact science? I'm telling you that some drugs are, but definitely I would say edibles are the least predictable. Yeah, I would agree. I think that's because digestion is involved. Yeah, because there's digestion involved, there's just so many factors and different scenarios that go into play that God only knows. Everyone's body is different, but if you take a hit... of weed off of a joint, you pretty much know what's going to happen. And if you eat a Zanny bar, you pretty much know what's going to happen. Damn right. So can you snort a rose edible or does that not work? The rose edible is similar to a Turkish delight chewy candy. So it would be tough to snort. I think if I put it into my grinder, It might turn out to be a pretty gummy mess. Okay, I'm out on those then. Clog up the grinder. But shout-out to Scott over at Plant and Paper and Rose for hooking me up with the pack. Yeah, as a person who can't use edibles, I do use Plant and Paper. I was a purchaser before I relocated to LA. I love the ethos of the business. It's a smashing little ethos, isn't it? Yeah, so I try to plan it right. And then at the end of the podcast, if I'm feeling bored.

then you know that you know hold on if you're feeling bored bitch you were talking to me yeah it is absolutely impossible to feel anything but elation and joy and stimulation true but you know it is a spectrum of joy and in and attention and that spectrum varies depending on what the subject matter is like if you're going to go on you know about like a band that i don't really listen to then i might start checking out a little bit um your bad taste in music is not my problem and honestly it would probably serve you better to pay attention so you could learn a little something about having good taste you know based on your tone it does kind of sound like it is your problem chris oh fuck you you feel i feel a little irk from you yeah um But otherwise, hey, we're going to have a great menswear chat today with an OG menswear man. So I had heard of and I was familiar with, but I was not a part of a continuous lean community. Could you break that down a little bit for me, please? I mean, he just had kind of the most... important independent website of that era, and it was especially known for its rich comment section. I didn't actually participate that much, but there would be biblical posts of dudes just destroying each other, arguing about things that truly don't matter. So it was specifically in the menswear world. I mean, he, it was a little more broad than that because I think Michael's interests are more broad than that. But yes, I think that's why it's, that's, that's, you know, nothing men love to argue about the internet more than like a, a hem length. Brother, we are on some different chat rooms. Yeah. You guys were talking, yeah. The holler board was nerdier in a worse way. Maybe. Um, it was, yeah, but it was, but it was a real.

we talk a lot about community as being a big benefit of newsletters and websites and everything like that. That is a community that happened without really knowing that it was happening to you, which is why it was kind of magical and special. Very powerful. Now communities are prescribed to us as an experience in life that you have to pay for because you can't find your own community yourself. Jason, I don't know about you, but I'm sick of paying for stuff. Well, I am not sick of paying for stuff because I didn't pay for stuff to begin with, baby. I know. We know you're cheap. That's your role in this podcast. Yeah, I'm the cheap one and you're the one who appears that you're sick and tired of paying for everything. No, I'm just kidding. I love contributing to different independent businesses with my income. like cable television and stuff. Exactly, big spectrum. But this, dude, we should talk about it before Michael comes on. This shit going on with the NBA is pretty crazy, huh? Yeah, so they boycotted playing, and now they have... No, that's the thing. You're using the wrong term. They're on strike. Sorry, sorry. They went on strike, and then... That's my bad. They went on strike, and then I heard that they reached an agreement pretty quickly. Or have you decided to play the rest of the postseason out? Apparently, yes. I mean, I don't fully understand, which, I mean, for that to happen that quick is pretty crazy because, I mean, the Jacob Blake, the murder of Jacob Blake happened like a few days ago. I mean, I think the NBA and sports in general, I think it's a... it's interesting because I don't care about sports and this actually makes me interested in it. And it's kind of the, it's kind of a, a testament to the power that sports have in this country. And that it is, it is it like cutting people off from playoff basketball is, is that important? It's crazy to me, but I mean, I'm very curious to see what happens in the football world. If people start.

you know, taking a knee for reals and just not playing. What will happen there? Because I think that NBA, you know, is the least racist out of, or like, you know, racist bro zone out of any of the major sports. I would probably agree. But I think the problem with all of these sports and professional sports in general is that the power structure is basically like old rich white man owns team full of young black men that play. So optically, it's very bad. And I think operationally, it's not great. But I think someone like LeBron James has immense power that goes far beyond the world of sports. The influence that he wields in kind of everything is wild and impressive. And I think that him taking a stand as a leader is a very important thing to do. And I think that he did it kind of at the perfect time. I think he saw the opportunity to really use his power for good and flex those muscles. It's a beautiful thing. worked to some extent worked i mean obviously that means a lot of different things but i think well what do you think happened in because they had they they announced that they were going to they were not going to play for the rest of the season and then we went to sleep and then we woke up and they said they reached an agreement so what do you think happened in those chats did somebody just say like people are going to riot in the streets i don't know don't play Yeah, I don't really know. I mean, that's the thing. I think the issue is it's like these owners of these teams obviously donate money to charities and they do all this stuff, blah, blah, blah. But they also are giving large sums of money to politicians. They're hiring off-duty police officers to work there. You know, it's just such a huge system and the way it all weaves together is probably much more complicated than we realize as like, you know, citizens, you know. Do you think that racist people will start their own new NBA? That would be really interesting because it would be full of talentless, talentless white boys. And that is something that would not do well ratings wise. You know, that would be tough. But I do wonder, I mean, I wonder what that agreement, I'm sure it'll eventually come out, what that is and what that means. But I do think that it's, you know, it's,

It's just shocking to me that sports is the conduit for this kind of thing to be discussed at a level that seems as fervent as protests. You know what I'm saying? Well, thank God that athletes are there for us to do this because they know how much power they have personally, and they have their own voice, they have their own platforms, and they can... you know, create some real change. Who, who, who would have ever thought that athletes were going to be the ones to change the world like this, but God bless. Yeah. I'm, I'm interested to see, I'm interested to see what happens. I mean, I think that, I think that, um, you know, uh, it's, I don't know, man, it's, it's so fucked on so many levels still, but I think that this is at least a step in the right direction because these are very powerful people. Um, and it, it obviously, The lack of sports on television is apparently making people fucking insane. So if you can play that against them and have these people understand that, you know, sports is the only thing a lot of people have. It's crazy. But like if you take away one playoff basketball game and that makes, you know. 10 fucking dumb white guys realize that racial injustice is a bigger issue than you watching playoff basketball on your couch, then I guess that's a step. You can't discount that. It's a win. It's a win. It's a win. No pun intended. My pun was intended, but it's absolutely a win. It's amazing. Even though they agreed, or allegedly they agreed at the time of this recording to go back and play the rest of the season, it only was 12 hours where they were, they were protesting, playing, a lot of change probably happened in just those 12 hours. A lot of people looked at it with a new set of eyes. Yeah, totally. And I think that that is, you know, I think that it's a full court press, no pun intended, about everything.

That actually was, I'm sorry, but it's going to require every little thing, you know what I mean, to touch every person that needs to hear it. For me, it's not going to be sports, but for a majority of America, it is, so kudos. Yeah, it takes a global village. It won't be sports for you, but whatever the people on Bravo Network are up to with their philanthropic efforts to change the world, you will be behind them. Yes, I will. Thank you for noticing. Jesus Christ. Okay, let's give Big Mike a call and see what's popping over here. Brentwood. Okay, sounds good. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions, but how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you.

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That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. What's up? What's up guys? What's up? What is it? What's up? We're here. We're joined by Michael Williams. Thank you for joining us, Michael. I know it's, it's tough to take time out of your day of grilling and playing golf to, you know, just talk to two other guys that are taking time out of their day from important stuff. I mean, we're all busy, we're all busy people, but you know, thankfully, you know, we can schedule this all in, you know, we can make it happen. It's true. It's tough. It's tough. If you, if you saw my G Cal, your jaw would drop a lot of tennis in there. It would drop be like, wow, this guy. This guy does a lot of elliptical and Pilates work. Guys, look, the tennis thing is Jason and I play a lot together, Michael, and we play at like 3 p.m. because it's the only time you can get a court in L.A. right now. It's sizzling hot, Michael. It's 6 p.m. in New York, so I'm done anyway. You know what I mean? Well, except for the – it's hard to get – right now it's hard to get a tennis court. I actually think it's – I don't know. In my neighborhood, it's like all these houses have private tennis courts and like all the tennis guys – I don't have a tennis court. I'm just saying like all – like my tennis instructor is like, oh, yeah. Yeah, no tennis courts. It's disappointing. He's like, bitch, I got two kids. Shut the fuck up. What do you mean? I got money for a tennis court? What do you mean? I do have a tennis court. Yeah, you got two kids. Chris has two rackets. Exactly. So you're playing, so you have a coach. I have a, well, so I have the, you know, shout out Grant Freeman, who's like the West LA, you know, tennis. He's like grew up in Brentwood, you know, basically played here his whole life and like knows everyone. He's like got this, he's got this crazy circuit of like West LA moms that he just like, like he has all these morning clinics. I don't go that much. I go a little bit.

I want to get in on this. Michael, we're going to need you to tell us on a scale of 1 to 10 how hot he is. Is it for you if I'm pairing him up with you or is it hot to me? No, just a general hotness. I'm not talking about skills. I'm talking about how does his body and face look. I don't think Grant is, uh, Grant's, I don't know that Grant is, uh, I think he's an eight, you know, I don't think he's, look, he's, you know, I think, you know, that's an LA eight, which, you know, LA eight is a global 12. I would say it's like, it's a 1.5 multiple. Yeah, I would agree. You know, cause when I, when I was working with soul cycle, uh, I was told that. The instructor who made the most money was like a guy my age, like a white guy with tattoos who worked Upper East Side. And they said that multiple times husbands had came in looking for him. Oh, my God. Amazing. Which I was like, I think, but tennis instructor is a classic hottie job. You know, it's like you didn't, you got hurt. Maybe you didn't make, you know, you couldn't play anymore. And now it's kind of implied that you are able to fuck the people that you are instructing, you know? Exactly. Yeah. It's an understanding. It's, it's built into the, when you're, when you're paying money, you're learning the tennis, but we're also going to need to get you out of that shirt at some point during the match. If you want to see the other side of the $60. How often are you doing this? You know, we've been on, so we've been like mega strict lockdown. So we've been really, cause we have a four month old baby. So, you know, my wife's, you know, very concerned about the COVID. Sounds like your wife's concerned and you're not that concerned. No, it's not. We're good. I'm on board with whatever she's on board with. Michael, super spreaders are able to kind of sniff each other out with their uncanny sense. You came, as soon as I saw your face, I was like, Michael is definitely on team super spreader. Yeah, Williams, I will spread for you.

I want to be on Super Spreader, but I've learned after five or six years of marriage, however long it's been, I can't fight. I have to submit. It's not worth it. Especially, I think, I would say the only thing I would be careful about would be children. I think that is the reasonable reason. I know you're dipping your bananas in bleach before you eat them, but that might not be too extreme. For the kids, though. So we have a room where I'm supposed to wipe all the groceries down, you know, and I walk in there with a garbage can lid and a broom and I just hit it. And, you know, I'm in there for 20 minutes checking my Instagram and I come out and, you know, oh, yeah, it's all wiped down. Everything's clean. That's like Jason when he fake washes his hands after he goes to the bathroom. He just turns the water on. I'm able to do it with hands free, Chris. Oh, I see. I didn't realize that. So that's the Brentwood version of having a mud room in your house. Like this is the vegetable and this is where we wash the cleaning products that we just wash. That we used to wash. Exactly. Yeah, we had a UV bath installed. You know, just anytime you enter the home, you have to stand in the UV bath. It's just smart to get one at the house, you know. It was easier. We had the infrared sauna guy here anyway, so it was like, why not? It was like getting Spotify and Hulu together to just kind of bundle them and it's chilled. Exactly. So you guys have been playing because it's safe. Well, no, we just have played because it's like California. The one thing I think about with the difference between New York and L.A., which is a little bit upended now because of... covid and it's tennis is so busy but you can't do anything to get a tennis court in new york like there's it's impossible and like midtown tennis it's like ridiculous there's no full backcourt it's like that shit just drives me nuts you know so i like never played and then when we moved out here it's like liz my wife started taking lessons with this with grant and so i was like i need to go see what this guy's all about no but grant grant's not like that he's actually he's a degenerate gambler he's not a uh

He's not like, oh, we got to pick one. I mean, addiction goes many ways. We should talk about the intro. I mean, it's gambling. It's wise. Michael, don't worry. He's only a degenerate gambler. He's not going to try to fuck me. He was texting me this morning about bets. He's like, we got this bet. Like, I'm putting you in it. I'm like, okay, like, here we go. We're betting on golf tournaments. Perfect. Well, that's what I was going to – we were going to make fun of you for your love of golf, actually. That was my next topic because you have fully pivoted to a golf influencer. And I think that is an interesting late career move for you or mid-career move for you. But I do think you're a very bright guy, and I think that I get the move. I feel like it's like no one else was in the space, so you saw a hole and you filled it. Unintended, Chris. Pun intended. That's actually my – that's been my MO my whole life. It's been an attempt to see a hole and fill it. Hey, let's go. No. I think golf is – it's optically and in every way it's super challenged. It's like the most ridiculous thing in the world and Trump makes it worse and it's like it's already super bad and then it's – you know, Trump's playing fucking golf every day while there's like a pandemic on and dude can't even, you know, it's like, that's like symbolic of like every, every degenerate golfer, you know? It used to be the gentleman's sport. Now the biggest idiot of the, of planet earth does it every day. Basically. And then after the, the Malcolm Glanwell podcast, you know, the environmental impact that's got to leave a mark on you as well, Michael. It does. It hurts. I appreciate – anyone that wants to dislike it, that's fine. To me – No, I play golf. I'm not hating. You can hate. I mean it's fine. It's not a big deal. My short game is a problem for you, dog. You don't want my short game. But you've been playing – did you play growing up? I played a little bit growing up. I kind of lived –

next door to a country club, and I would always sneak in there when I was a kid, right? Yeah. You know, it's like you grew up in Atlanta. It's like a different perspective on golf, right? It's big there. No, it's huge. I played growing up too. It's huge. It's like part of the culture. Yeah, it's like a thing. But I don't know. To me, like there's a million people that are cool that play golf you just don't know, right? Like it's like the – I would agree with that. It's a sleeper cell. I think like – I was just like more open about it and I was like, look, there's really – it's not that I want to become a golf influencer. I was just thinking there's nothing in this – in the game that's happening that I really can connect with. So I was like if it's not happening – if I feel this way, other people probably feel this way. No, I think – I honestly think it's smart. I just don't understand why – I just feel like the way that running – became very cool and like overnight it was almost like this thing and obviously that has to do with the big companies getting behind it and making good product i think is where it all stems from like i think if nike makes enough cool shit anything will work it is honestly how i feel um golf it's still like a titleless hat with a bent brim like why why has this not like i know the guys at whim golf are friends i know malbin golf but like why Is there not the player Brooks that wore the off-white shoes? I know these little things, but what do you think it's going to take to really push it into a cooler or even more interesting arena? I don't know. I think the problem with golf and maybe tennis to some degree. Tennis I don't think is much cooler. It's just a court game. I think it's just a little bit of a different thing. Accessibility is higher. Accessibility is higher. Yeah, it's a little bit more accessible. Tennis and basketball could be kind of seen as a similar sort of thing. You could play it anywhere. It doesn't matter where you live. Golf is more sort of exclusive or whatever. But I think golf is too niche. I don't think it's ever going to be able to cross over into mainstream in a relevant way. I don't think we wanted to either.

I don't think it should. You know, it's like cycling in a way. It's like cycling is a very niche sport where the people that are into it are super into it. But then everyone outside is like, it's just a bunch of people wearing Lycra. It's weird. Well, cycling is my favorite fat, rich guy sport. Number one in the fact, like it actually beats golf because it like. Somehow you can ride 100 miles every Saturday with your dentist friends, and you're still 35 pounds overweight. I don't know. I don't understand how it works. I think the through line for all of that is they're both sports that rich white guys play, and they're both sports that involve kind of solitude, time away from other people, or your LP, your life partner. So fat whiteys who make a lot of money do need that escape from other people. Now, Michael, are you doing deals on the course? No, I'm not really. No, that's not really happening. I think if I was like an insurance broker, maybe that would be happening. Well, I just find honestly, though, I found that tennis is a thing that I actually am able to play with people. I mean, Jason and I work together. It doesn't count. But like I've played tennis with people that I didn't know that well. And it was kind of like business. Chris uses tennis as a biz dev tool in his arsenal. What? Well, for me, Jason, everything's a biz dev tool, and that's why I'm the leader of this twosome. That's why he's a rain man. Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But now, as far as business goes, Michael, I think that, you know, in the intro, I obviously gassed up a continuous lean, the OG site and the comment section that I... Truly read like a Bible because it was a fucking barbecue in there. And we, you know, in the last couple of weeks on this podcast, we've talked a lot about the newsletter resurgence and the whole thing with that. So I, I'm, you're the perfect person to talk about this, but basically these newsletters are just replacing blogs. I don't see any difference. Well, I think that.

I think the big difference in the problem, I mean, look, I didn't publish my site for years, right? And I think that's why I'm on episode 100 of this podcast. Or what is it? Is this 74? What is this? 72, I believe. I was hoping for 69, but it didn't work out. A lot of people were vying for that spot, Michael. You have to understand that. The PR people were honest about that one. You got to give that one to the sponsor. You should talk to your team. We can put you in for next year. I mean, start now. So I wasn't doing my site for a long time, right? So I think for me it was like a little bit of a – I was out of the game for a while, right? There is a parallel between newsletters and blogs. I think the problem was sort of at a certain point, social media corrupted the way everyone sort of is on the web, right? So it's like you're not going to websites every morning. You're not sitting at your computer. You're on your phone. So it became you only really read the things that you get out of Twitter or you know, someone texted you or you see on Instagram or whatever, right? So it changed the traffic flow. And I think that was like the thing that ultimately killed blogs because unless you just have this, you know, strong stream of traffic coming to you naturally, directly, then it's hard to make it work, right? And then display fell apart. There's just all these other reasons. You know, the good thing about Substack is it's just, it's passive, right? It just comes to you. People treat their email differently than they treat a social. scroll or whatever, right? Because, you know, you go on vacation, you come back, you go through all your emails, you know, or generally. I mean, email definitely feels like a more direct form of communication and just a little more personal, I think. I just wonder, does it feel the same to you? Like, does it feel the same as far as like creating the actual stuff and writing the stuff? Like, is it the same? Like, do you get the same feeling from it?

It's better for me, honestly, because I know it's not going out into the wide universe, right? I mean, if I make it private, it's just going to the people that subscribe and then maybe if they forward it, whatever, right? And then I can feel like, all right, I can be more personal or I don't need to – I don't know. Because they're paying for it, I don't have to play any of the games that I maybe would think – What's the continuous lean fee looking like? Hit us with the numbers. It's too high. Chris, it's a tiered system, you understand. How much? It's like you can pay $7 a month. You can pay $68 a year. You can pay more if you want, right? All right, so I pull out the credit union card, and I give Michael Williams $67. What am I getting? How many dispatches from Brentwood am I receiving? You know, I'm saying I'm going to publish twice a week, right? I publish a little bit more and I never said I was going to do a podcast and I just sort of put the podcast in the newsletter. I'm not really doing a podcast otherwise. Like I'm not like building a separate property and there's no sort of end game with that. It's more of, you know, I feel like there are certain conversations that would be more interesting done that way and it goes into the newsletter very cleanly. So, you know. Mickey Drexler is a great example. That motherfucker loves to talk on the phone. Oh, yeah. Mickey Drexler loves a blind phone call. It's very old school. I love it. I love it. But he's a great guy for you to talk to on a podcast. That's a great example of how that should work. You just can't interview him. It's like an add-on. No, you can't. We could do it, but I'd have to be there with him and then spend a lot of time and whatever. He blind called me yesterday after that came out and was like – and then he's like talking to me about Palm Springs and all this other stuff. It's funny. He's like, what do you think about – He loves it. Yeah, he's like into all the details. But I think you have – I consider you to have an important voice. I always love the site and I love – I mean I love talking to you about this stuff. So I think it's something people will be willing to pay for. But do you think –

Do you think you can – let's say the world inches back to normal and the docket is more full for you. I mean not that work isn't busy, but you know what I mean. Like life will intervene in a way. Do you think that the cadence is doable for you? Is it enough or is it too much? The cadence is half of the reason I'm doing it because it's more liberating to publish twice a week than it is to have – an unlimited vessel that can consume as much story or writing or content or whatever that I put into it, which is the blog. And the pressure of that becomes, you know, tremendous, right? Where you're like, I should be writing something every day. You know, right now I'm like, I publish something and then I have four days to work on the next thing, you know, or I'm working on ideas way in advance because I know I have like a fixed schedule and I've honestly never been busier in my life. Right. You know, I'm starting two new companies. I have two kids under three. I'm doing the newsletter and doing all this other stuff. For me, it's better because the more I move, the more active I become. I think we experience the same exact thing with doing our podcast three times a week of having that cadence of just the flywheel of productivity where it's the perfect amount of downtime and off time. to where it never gets old and it never gets hard either. I mean, if you guys didn't have time between to go do other things or play tennis or whatever and use that time to think, I think a lot of people overlook the aspect of thinking about things. Yes, I agree. Some might say I do that on Twitter. I would disagree, but I know what you're saying. What time of the day is your thinking time when you have two children under three? At night, you know, I've always been like a work at night type of person. I didn't know that about you, actually. You're a midnight toker, Michael? Yeah, I'm a morning guy. Oh, really? Yeah, I'm a morning guy. After dinner time, we're going to go bye-bye. Jason and I text. Jason and I start texting at 6 a.m., like multiple days a week. Yeah. I've disabled the alarm on my phone because I always get.

A message from Chris Black that has an Instagram link to a shirt to wake me up every day. Exactly. It's a service I provide. I should add that to Substack, actually. I think that would be a good idea. Wait, Chris. I want to ask about your Twitter. Can I ask you a question? I would encourage you to ask multiple questions about his Twitter, please. I mean, how much work and time does it take to actually do that? I mean, is it just like this, you know, do you just, is it like a little quip here and there and you just off the cuff, just do it? Or it's like, you think about it. Like, you know, I feel like Lawrence Swassman puts a lot of work into his Twitter. I, I, it's completely off. That's why I think I'm able to do it so much as I just do it when I want to do it, but I'm online, you know, my screen time is record breaking. So therefore I'm seeing all this stuff when, when you see all this stuff and you, you're, you have a compulsion to comment and then the app is just right there. But I mean, if we're, you know, if, if it's, I, I actually, I can't think of. spending any time on it. Like, I find an image or I think of something and I do it immediately. I don't really think it through. I've only gotten killed a few times. What have you gotten killed on? You know what I mean? Can you talk about it? I'm trying to think. It's bullshit. It'll be about, like, a celebrity. Like, you have to, like... Take out a word of Taylor Swift's name or you're going to get ruined. What did I do? Something recently I did and I got – it was like days. I had to silence the – I had to silence it. You had to turn the noties off. I had to turn off the notification. I had to turn the noties off on the tweet because I went back and I had 3,000 likes and a bunch of comments. But it was something stupid. It would be like I made fun of Taylor Swift's cardigan. My life is over for two weeks. But I don't think that – I don't think that's the thing. I don't think – Whereas a website or, you know, obviously a magazine or a book or a newsletter, those to me are things that should be thought out and a lot of effort should be put in. I think Twitter is the exact opposite of that. And I think that's why I like it so much. And that exercises a part of my brain that the other stuff I do that I take more seriously.

But they have to have each other. You know what I mean? Without the long form, you don't have the short form and vice versa. Exactly. Without a crazy forehand, my neck game is nothing. I thought you said neck game. My neck game is also nothing. But I do think that the era of the newsletter is making me miss the era of the blog. Like I'm a person who still goes to websites and types them into my fucking search, my URL bar. And he only uses his two index fingers to do it. Exactly. That's true. I peck away like a, like a granny, but I don't, I think that is all this thinking and talking about newsletters just made me miss that more. And I feel like the one thing that cannot be replicated and the people are trying to do it is like a community aspect of it all. And like, The community aspect of like an ACL, even though it was mostly dudes making fun of each other in a comment section, it still was something. And it was all housed under that one in one place. Now, if you have a newsletter and you have a community, it has to be on Discord or Slack or some other dorky shit to get all those people together in one place. And that is the difference I think people are not. totally thinking about right now and how the importance of that. You know, so, um, I listened to Dan from new consumer, uh, on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, uh, or a week ago. And, uh, and then I had a call with him and it was funny because I just had a call set up and then I listened to him on your podcast. And, um, he answered a lot of what I was thinking about with the newsletter stuff too. And he was like, I don't want to do a, you know, I don't want to quote him or whatever, but like, you know, he was, he wasn't, he wasn't super interested in doing the Slack channel or whatever. And I just sort of got into the Blamo Slack channel, right? And I walked in and I was kind of like, holy shit, what is going on in here? This is why I don't do this. Get me out of here. I mean, it just all seems a little dorky. I think it's a combination of it is dorky and also we're just old. We're just older compared to everyone who's like Discord and Slack for people in their 20s and below.

It's just normal. That's how you talk. It's the way they FaceTime with no warning. It's the way that a teen would FaceTime with no warning. It's the way that you still want cable at your house and you want to scroll your channels and nobody in their 20s and below wants to do that. You type into your remote control and the show that you want to watch comes up. Yeah, exactly. It's true. I just think it's interesting. I don't know. Something about it to me like charging for community is a very strange thing in my mind. But I also just think that's where we're at. And it's not actually strange. It's something that I need to get over the stigma of that I've created in my own mind. That is true. I think you just figured it out, Chris. You worked through it. Thank you, Jason. That's what we do here on How Long Gone. I think the way people look at the subscriptions, and I'm not saying this because I feel like I could charge a subscription fee because I'm a known quantity, right, to the people that care. You've been in the game too long, baby. You've been in the game too long. I'm proven. No, I just think, you know. I can do it that way. It's not going to be for everyone. It's a very niche thing, which is fine. But the way people look at subscription money, I think is, is a little fucked up. Like, I just think like I spend two grand a year on content. Like I don't care where it comes from, you know? And if it's like twice a week in a newsletter that, that, you know, it has to really be appealing to me. You know, it's, it's not a parallel between. I see what you're saying. So you're saying you think. You think about these subscriptions the same way you think about Netflix or Hulu or YouTube or whatever else you're paying for as far as entertainment subscriptions go. No, I think about it not against that. I think about $68 to get a newsletter twice a week like a dinner out. Where I'm like, look, I can go eat that dinner. I enjoyed it. That's it. It's over. Where are you going to dinner where it's only $68? I need to come to Brentwood. I'm eating by myself, crying at the tacos. Whenever I see a newsletter that you have to spend $68 or $200 a year to read, it just makes me think of the 10 newsletters I currently read that are free and how much better are these going to be compared to this one that seems to have everything I need.

Like, like Chris, like public announcement, you know? Yeah, but I, you know, our newsletter and how we do it. And I, it just, again, it goes back to Jay and I's both like web 1.0 love. And it's like mostly links with some editorializing. I think that for us to charge, we would need to go deeper on personally. And that's what actually people are paying for. Like my, our, our, the public announcement edit of the, of the, the worldwide web. is valuable to some people. I don't know if it's valuable enough to pay for it. Yeah. I think people want, you know, going back to your thought about community too, I think people want to know that they're supporting something and be a part of something more than they want to, like, derive maximum value out of their inbox, you know? And the thing I always say is, like, it's like MoMA. Like, I go to MoMA. I'm not trying to sneak in for free on some reciprocal pass. I just pay for the membership. I probably will only go once a year. I do the same. It's like I feel like a picture of the arts for $100. Why don't I feel like that about a newsletter? You haven't found your MoMA of newsletters yet, Chris. I pay for Blackbird Spyplane, and I pay for Airmail, the greatest newsletter. Some would say it's a website, but I say it's a newsletter. Some would say it's a child sex trafficking ring. Look, Jason... Sorry, Michael. Jason's a member of QAnon, so we have to... That's part of the problem with this podcast. Yeah, we're kidding. Hey, I have to plug my computer in. Hold on one second. Sorry. Amateur. It's because Michael took so long to get ready. Do not place blame, Chris. I'll accept the blame. We'll do a clap. Do you want me to clap? Sure. Thank you. It's always something with this guy, Chris. I'm sure you already know that from dealing with him over the years. Oh, yeah. I know. Okay, guys. Hey, sorry about that. We're back. You want me to clap? Make it clap. Okay. I mean, so Blackbird spy plane, you know, I read that, too.

oftentimes wonder what the hell is going on. And that's, that's, that's part of the reason I like it is because it's so voicey and I'm not getting anything like that. Chris, what do you mean by voice? I think that it's, it's just, it's so personality driven. Like he'll have people that I personally know on and talk to them in a way that I think actually disarms them and gets interesting answers. Love that. and i i mean i i don't know i mean that's like he had taka from valence on today who's a longtime client of mine i know really well and like it was really fun to read that with a person i know it was interesting and like felt fresh in a way um but i imagine michael that that's kind of how people thought about something like four pins you know what i mean and it's time it's like what the fuck this this thing has its own language um which that's how you build community is Exactly. That's what I mean. And even with a podcast, I think there's words that we probably say and like a vernacular we use and kind of like repeating phrases and things that Jason and I both say naturally to become part of like the brand of the show, for lack of a better term. And there's a community of people out there who would be willing to pay $5 a month to learn even more terrible words and phrases and slang to use from us. Exactly. And, you know, we're anti-Patreon on this podcast because we're not digital panhandlers. But I, you know, I do. If you had a way to monetize it in a way that felt better, would you do it? We are. We have fucking ads for bad brands. That's what podcast is built on. That's the thing is that I think that I'm, that is something that Jason and I probably are both stuck in our ways about that may be negative. Like I just. I don't want people to know how much money I'm making from this. You know what I mean? I want to do it the traditional way. It doesn't interest me to have my monthly income on a website for people to see. It seems insane. That seems really weird. I think they turned that function off actually now. Or you have the option to. Oh. Thankfully. Multiple people have texted me about... Sorry.

throwing fits like you know they're like these guys are making x amount you know it's good you should we only we refer to that as failing fits on the show uh just just for going forward we'll have to bleed that one out but moving forward i want i do a patreon for you know failing fits there you go um i'd i'd do it for when you know just a version with lawrence and no james I'd fucking pay extra. Wow, interesting take. I think people would do that for this podcast. Same thing. All Chris, no Jason. I think that would be a very profitable business for me. If Chris could figure out how to make a podcast, that would be great for you. I could find somebody to pay $30 an episode to put this all together. Now I'm having to split it. Do not bring Harry up. But I do think that what they've done is super interesting. I just don't know. What I'm truly not fearful of but interested in is people that used to contribute to real publications being like, why would I do that? I'm just going to do it for my newsletter because it makes more money. Whereas I still want, not the clout necessarily, but I want that stamp of approval from GQ and Vanity Fair and New York Magazine. That still matters to me. I think that makes sense. That makes you a boomer, Chris. Yeah, I think that's true too. I think honestly like they would have all those – and I'm not dissing any of those publications. I think what they do is good. But I think the whole media landscape has become very muddied in the sense of you can't tell what's fucking real and what's like the affiliate driver or what's like the fucking astroturfed PR friend or what's – this is like I've spent my whole – career working in this shit where you're like, is this real? Or is, you know, a lot of times I would look at stuff. I'm like, Oh, so-and-so, you know, Chris is friends with Taka or works with them. That's why this shit's in there. Not that you do that, but I'm sure you, you actually do do that. Michael, I would never do that. I'm an ethical person and also an ethical journalist. And for you to say that on my fucking podcast is actually insane. As Chris said earlier, everything is a business. Jason, God damn it.

No, I actually, I'm the strategist. I would disclose that because like, I think that's fine because I don't think anybody really cares. But I think, you know, Michael with communications and press in general, it's like part of that, the relationships that we build are like the idea is that Michael's not going to send me any garbage or Chris isn't going to send me any garbage. Like what I get from Chris is vetted through Chris. And that's part of the reason I'm opening the email with a text. But I know what you mean. You're saying the landscape has become so muddy that we don't know what's an affiliate link and what's real opinion. Yeah, exactly. And that's why I'm saying I'd rather just pay for stuff, which I think is where everyone's going because advertising is falling apart, right? So I'd rather just pay a premium for GQ content or any publication that gives me unfiltered, pure stuff, right? Yeah, here's the actual journalism, actual information, not payola stuff. Brand placement or anything. And you know when you read the print magazine, though, you know it's real. Like that's why print still is important. Do you? I don't know. I think, yeah, they're not playing affiliate games, you know. No, they're not playing affiliate games, but it doesn't – I mean I think the general public now understands like a press trip and all that, which is like I don't – that to me is not an ethical thing. That's more of like an experience thing. You know what I mean? But what is – What magazines do you subscribe to in 90210? 90049. I do subscribe to GQ. I subscribe to a couple other. Honestly, before it got sold, I actually read Sports Illustrated in the magazine. Now talk about Boomer, you and my 65-year-old father, lifetime subscriber. 30-year subscriber of Sports Illustrated. You know Horatio Silva? Do you know him from New York Times? Or used to be at the New York Times? So Horatio is the biggest tennis fanatic in the world. And he always had Sports Illustrated at his house. And I was like, it's kind of interesting that he read it. And that's kind of where I sort of re-picked it back up, which is from this fashion journalist, very gay.

guy that you just like wouldn't expect it right or maybe like that's a bad take um but you know i was like surprised to see no i wouldn't expect i mean i would expect my 65 year old father accountant who reads the wall street journal and the and sports illustrated those are his two things that he reads the most like that's what i would expect but you don't so but do you do you buy specialty magazines like do you care the way i do are you going to spend 40 on arena home plus We definitely overlap on Racket. I love Racket. Friend of the show. It's real. It's no bullshit like that. And it's beautiful and it's cool. And then, honestly, there's a few indie golf magazines that I like. I was going to ask you about that, Arthur, because we just heard about one on a call before this podcast about coffee that looked similar to Racket. It was really beautiful. It was called Sport. What was it called, Jason? I've already forgotten. But I looked at the Instagram and I was like, damn, this is really nice. And I'd never heard of it before, which of course spiraled. The same way technology has made it so we can create products, videos, audio, we can also create magazines pretty easily. It's called Standart. Standart. Yeah, it's about coffee. I don't care about coffee that much, but it's beautiful. I would probably buy it. So you're buying Bracket. What else? They did a Kickstarter. I think it's like a twice-annually beautiful, heavy paper stock magazine, large format called Catalog 18. It's like this golf thing. Yes. It's so pretty and nice, and it's super heavy. It's like a book. You just want to own it. And Kickstarter, the original digital panhandling platform. Let's give them the respect they deserve. There's another one called McKellar Magazine. They're sort of trying to be the New Yorker of golf. And it's pretty interesting. They have good voices in there. There's a couple like that. So do either of those titles compare to Racket in a similar way that Racket talks about tennis in kind of like a timeless cultural way versus like news and new, new, new? Yeah, McKellar is like...

I don't – they're kind of – if you mix those two things together, maybe they would be sort of on the level of racket because I think racket can be more visual. It's not just thought-provoking sort of around tennis. But McKellar is like very thought-provoking. It's not as like image-driven. And Catalog 18 is like very visual. But I think Racket is sort of – they have like a better cultural place. The visual aspect of it is good. The way they do brand integrations is nice. I respect that. I think it's hard to – it's like what you guys were saying about the advertisers on the podcast. It's hard to find the balance and it's a lot of work to find the right balance of a good commercial engagement with a media property. Yes, it is. And I would say with podcasts, what is interesting about this media more than others is that like, I would say us joke, like making fun of the advertiser is the only way that it works. Right. And that's like what makes ads interesting is that it's like, and that's what your, you know, what your listener wants to hear. You know what I'm saying? It's like, they don't want to hear us. read a straight ad about vitamins. Like, that's fucking boring. Like, I want you to enjoy the ads the way you're enjoying the podcast. And I don't think there's any other medium that's really like that, where, like, the actual creator is allowed to have these freedoms with the, like, you know. Yeah, even on YouTube, when they do an ad read on a YouTube show, they make it their own, but it still kind of has that, you know, stick to the script energy that podcasting has been able to transcend. I love doing the ads. It's fun. I think about it, too, with Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History, which I think is just one of the most enjoyable podcasts. Are you a Gladwell ad? Are you a Gladdy-Dotdy? I should dislike Gladwell, but I think he's interesting in certain ways.

Well, Michael, I consider you a magical thinker, so I get it. Did you hear the story that Gladwell's dad was Kamala Harris' father's college advisor? That's so— Or he told him to go to Stanford, basically. Of course, though. You know what I mean? The world's fascination with Gladwell is not for me, but I also am a skeptic of anything like that to the point where it's probably harmful to me. I was a lot more into him before I learned stuff about him. Like that he's just a nerd? Maybe before I learned what he looked like, not to be superficial. Yeah. I hate when you're superficial. What episode are you talking about? Oh, about revisionist history? No, I was saying actually in relation to what we were talking about with ads, even Malcolm has to do these reads and does ads. He's trying to go further with whoever is the sponsor, Bank of America or whoever, whatever giant company it is. Damn, must be nice. Even then, it feels weird to me. It's like, this is weird and commercial, and he has to do these ads. Isn't there an easier way for him to just... Nowadays, he'll do an immersive 10-episode podcast about Lexuses, Lexi, and you're like, do I really want to hear Malcolm Gladwell do 10 hours on the Lexus? But he used to do an ad read that bugged the fuck out of me with him and Rick Rubin. doing an ad read for Allbirds Shoes. And I listen, I'm like, Rick Rubin is a multi-multi-millionaire, you know, and he's literally doing an Allbirds ad. Like, how much money is Rick Rubin getting for that? Four grand? I think there's more to it, Jason. Probably a long-term partnership. We'll have the Rick Rubin-Allbirds collaboration coming soon. It's a 360 deal. I don't like Rick Rubin anymore after I hear him do an ad. And I don't like Malcolm Gladwell for making Rick Rubin do an Allbirds ad. The other thing with ads on podcasts that I think is interesting is that I look at it, and this is the same way I look at influencers on Instagram. I kind of love it. When we started getting...

dick pill ads and shit like that people were like texting me like you made it like your kid like they like that because that's what that legitimizes yourself as an actual podcast you're not a real show blue chew or dick pills or something when i see influencers like posting like big shit with like car companies i'm like this is fire this just means you're real it's like i don't i don't look at it as like a negative i'm like this means you're successful at what you're doing which is a bad thing Totally. But I'm a capitalist, baby. You know what I mean? Yeah, but you also love the 90s where selling out is the absolute worst thing that you could ever do. I actually think selling out has existed in so long, I forgot what it meant. What's the point of living then? You've done some sponsored content on Instagram right now. I regrettably have, yes. Like you actually regret it or you regret it because you think I'm going to make fun of you? Oh, no, I don't care. I mean, dude, you can make fun of me for doing any. I never did anything I don't think that was egregious. But, you know, any of that stuff like. Get your bag, baby. What's that? Get that Jaguar bag. That's what I mean. Yeah, like I imagine, though, because of the level of sight and the brand itself, like I feel like you probably weren't getting garbage offers. No, I mean, I was kind of a dick about what I wanted to do. Look, I regret doing the Coles ad, okay? Do I come off as a dick? Is that why you said that? No, not at all. But, I mean, you doing a Cadillac ad on the grid is cool, in my opinion. But you're saying you regret some of it? I mean, I never felt really good about it. I don't know. It's like a means to an end. I think that's going back to the newsletter thing. It's like a very straightforward relationship. It's like you either – you want it and you pay for it and I don't have to play any games versus like me getting money from Oreo to post something and to just be in your feed where you don't necessarily want it. Yeah, you kind of have to be a sociopath to actually like doing that stuff.

I'm sure LeBron James hates doing ads even for his own company or his own shoe, you know, let alone a product he doesn't believe in. I think it's, you know, at one point you could have that like we're rappers, we do anything, we're commercial. Like I think that there's something wonderful about that if you don't care and you're open to it, right? I always wanted to be, I don't know, I maybe wanted to be too precious about it. So I think it was harder for me to. feel good about a lot of it. But there were certain things like I did with Cadillac that actually felt really nice. And I had a good partnership with them and they were cool. And it was, you know, it was fun. And I, and I believed, you know, in what we were doing. So it didn't feel like that weird, you know? So, so speaking work-wise, like, you know, are, are, how have your clients handled this, this whole, the pandemic and have people, have people made it out or has it been, has it been a bloodbath? We have some clients. One thing is I sold my share in Paul and Williams to my partner. So I'm out of that business. Oh, my God. So we're Michael Williams. It goes indie. You're back on Sub Pop after Epic. You did three records with Epic. You're like, this deal is a work for me. I'm ready to go indie again. I want to take back my career. I love to hear this. Yeah, you know, I can't have Rick Rubin producing my records anymore. Exactly. Exactly. So what are you doing now? Same thing, new approach. Yeah, so I basically, my clients that I was working with, I left with them too. So I have some clients like Tracksmith that their business is doing really well. And because they're just in the, you know, it's like they're doing the right thing in the right place with what's happening with outside sports and all that other shit. And then I have other clients that, you know, are sort of more retail focused and it's harder for them. I think it's, you know, a lot of the stuff I work on, though, is like a little bit sort of higher end. So I think, you know, I think the way that the pandemic is sort of hurting people differently in America is sort of playing into.

what I'm doing because I'm mostly working for brands that sell to people that generally have money and I think they're less affected by this. So it's been, my business is fine. It's been, it's been okay. So that's good. I mean, I, I'm busier than ever happened. I've heard that from a lot of people. Um, but I think that's always, you know, that's kind of how it always goes. It's how it goes when you work in the luxury market, fellas. I'm happy that I'm in LA and now it's like, because of the pandemic, no one expects me to be in New York. No one expects me to have an office. It's great. You know, I'm like, finally, this is like, you know, it's aligned with what I want. Cali is good vibes only, Michael. I think you've learned that, haven't you? Yeah. What do you think about the move? Are you feeling Cali life? Are you like, why did I not come here 10 years ago? I think I came at the right moment. I want to ask you about that too, Chris. I like it. I think it's good for me. I don't think it's probably good for everyone. I wouldn't want to be here in my 20s, probably. Yeah, same. Driving drugs sucks. I think that... I mean, I love California. There's nowhere I'd rather be right now. It's perfect for my lifestyle. But you miss the energy of New York if it was normal. Of course. But I think that what I'm hearing from New York is people either having the time of their lives because they're... partying and you can just like be in the street, do whatever the fuck you want. Or they're like, I haven't been there in six months. I don't know what's going on. Those are the only two responses. So, I mean, I will absolutely go back. Um, but I'm in no rush. Let me say that. What do you think about just LA in general? Right. And you spent, you love it. You spend a lot of time, but you seem conflicted about it. Like you don't want you. I'm very conflicted about it. We talk about all the time. I don't, I don't know what it is about. I mean, I don't mind. I don't mind driving. I love being out playing tennis and I can work out outside. I have a pool right now. I mean, there's no reason for me not to like it. I think it's truly a mental, because I'm not one of those like New York strong. New York makes me tougher like dumbasses. He's a New York makes me cooler dumbass, not a strong. Exactly. Much like sobriety, I think living in New York gives you this superiority complex that I know is a problem, but I cannot shake. Frankly, it's all you've got.

It is. Exactly. Exactly. Chris, maybe we need to have some type of ayahuasca ceremony or something for you to finally release whatever is blocking you and love the Cali vibes. I mean, it's not about not loving the Cali vibes. But there is a blockage, Chris. But I mean, I'm just an East Coast guy, bro. And that's what I've always been. So I think that change is just a lot. But Michael, did you settle in or was there a learning curve? No, I think, well, it was hard for me because I learned a lot about New Yorkers and myself in the process of being away for a certain amount of time. And I started to actually recognize things in New Yorkers that I don't like and that I never saw before. Right. And not, and it's, it's a choice. So it's like, whatever you want to do that makes you happy. I don't care. But I wasn't into it. Like if you go to Europe and you see people from New York, they're always dressed like a certain way. And you're kind of like, and I, I think it's like ridiculous because they're just, you know, it's like, they've never been in the sun. Right. So they're just like have their straw hat and look silly. Um, and. I just think there's a lot of stuff I saw that I was like, there's things happening in New York that I would probably do that I don't want to do anymore. But it took me four years to figure out, come to terms with living in California. It was hard, just waking up and so much stuff has already happened. But at a point, I felt like it was liberating because... I'd wake up and then I wouldn't have to stress because if the world was going to end, it would have already ended by the time I woke up. I never thought of Cali life like that, but it makes a lot of sense. That's a good way to think of it. That's a very good way. That's why I haven't moved to New Zealand. Exactly. You don't want to be on the front lines of that. And, you know, while we have you, you know, Jason's a big chef, home cook, if you will. Arguably the best in my life, actually. And I know you're a big green egg aficionado. Do you also have a pizza oven outside? No, I cook pizza in the green egg. Let's go. Damn, Jason, what you say. I have had big green pizza, and it is delicious. It's a great way to cook some pie.

But I was looking on your sub stack. You recently did a post about cooking. It unfortunately was behind the paywall. So could you tell me what that article was about, please? Yeah, can you give it away for free on this podcast that people listen to for free by choice? Venmo me five bucks and I'll tell you about it. Yeah, start talking. Let me get a little taste, baby. Come on. I don't need all 1,500. Let me get a bite, Michael. Let me get a little bite. 800 out of the 1,500 words. I put all my golf stuff behind the paywall to save myself the public embarrassment. Very smart. You're a businessman. I like that about you. I have a whole separate golf vertical that no one knows that I don't cross promote. So there it is. I was like doing a thing about smash burgers, right? But I think the egg is good to, you can do a lot with, but it's also pretty, it's kind of a cumbersome piece of machinery. Like a lot of times I just cook on a Weber because it's just easier, you know? My question is, who is going to be the first to powder coat the green eggs custom? I'm sure it's already been done. Because that would be it. Hot fire. There's all those other, you know, I think if Horanik could get Weber to do something with him, that would probably be his ultimate, you know. I think the green egg, because I grew up with it. My granddad was a big green egg. It's like a big Georgia thing, I feel like. I feel like they're based in Georgia. Yeah, it's a big Georgia thing. If you're rich and you're white, you play golf and you egg. That's right. That's not even a trifecta. That's four. I thought you had cocked one of those real Britwood-ass outdoor pizza ovens, which I was very excited about. Oh, the Ooni or the Rockbox, those things? I never bought one because, well, the Ooni, it's O-O-N-I. They're not that bad. They're like $3.75. Did you use that? Have you tried one, Jason? No, only the Rockbox. And what was your Rockbox review? Hot fire, literally.

How much? I think there's 600. Yeah. Do you have a pool? Yeah, we have a pool. And you haven't invited Jason and I over for a fucking barbecue yet. We're not, we're not. Let us spread to those kids, baby. Come on. Yeah. We got to build this. You have to come into our bubble. You have to live in our yoga studio for two weeks and then you can come into our bubble. You have a yoga studio? Yeah, we have a Peloton Pilates reformer. What the? Yeah. Damn. And look at me. I'm the least in shape person you'll ever fucking see. Damn, that's the biggest. Damn, Jason, we got to go to Brentwood one of these days. Jason, we'll cook outside. You guys can just, we'll eat and shift. Mike, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what you wrote about smash burgers specifically. Oh, you know, I just like the diner style cheeseburger, right? Like the thin patty. Uh, I just don't like the thick patty cheeseburger. And so we bought this house. It had a, like a really nice wolf range and it has a griddle, right? Like a grill. Jason has the same setup. I do have the same setup. It smokes the shit out of our house. So I don't use it very much. Do you have a, do you have a hood? Yeah, we have a hood. Is it the one where the, the griddles on the right and then the grill is on the left? Oh no, it's yeah. So we have, um, Just two burners on the left, griddle, and then four burners on the right. Oh. And it has two oven zones. It's pretty crazy. I never turned on my oven the whole time I lived in New York. Never once. Sure. It was full of Timberlands. Why would you? Exactly. Exactly. I mean, so wow, you guys are both rich. That's so interesting. You guys have these crazy ovens. I don't – sorry, listeners. I don't have any of this cool cooking stuff. So do you go cast iron for your smash burger then? No, so I cook it on that griddle. And it's – I think the key to that is just parchment paper, right? So you want to smash it with parchment paper on top of it and then it –

It's just like it cooks really quick. It comes off the whatever you smash it with easily. But so what I've done with going back to the pizza thing and the egg, I mostly cook pizza in a cast iron skillet in the oven because it's just so much easier. So like a lot of times I'll just – I'll heat the pan up. I'll put olive oil in the pan and then I'll stretch the dough in the pan. And let it bubble a little bit. And then I'll top it and then I'll put it in the oven. Get the oven just as hot as you can get it. And usually like the key to that is like put the pan in there so it gets really hot. So you're shaping the raw dough on a smoking hot cast iron pan. Yeah. And then you cook it. Absolutely mental. It works really well and it's super easy. And it's like the least clean up. It's just like the easiest thing to do. I got to get you a Detroit style cast iron rectangular pizza cooking pan available on Amazon. I need that. I've had it. It's like blue steel, right? Isn't that what they call it? That's right. Yeah. Are you from Detroit? Damn. I'm from Orange County, bro. The Detroit of LA. Yeah, we have a Hyundai plant there. That is manufacturing. You know what I mean? What is the watch company? It's the highest amount of Shinolas per capita in Orange County. Is Shinola out of business yet? I think their business is doing really well. I think they're killing it. What? With watches and record players? I think the watches are... First of all, I don't know what their business really looks like and how much money they've raised and whatever, what they've spent. But there's so much margin in watches that you can really just – you have so much flexibility with marketing, right? And I think they're positioned really well if you look at – I think the Apple Watch is probably bad for them.

If you look at like $500 to $1,000, there's not much there. That's because – I say this all the time. That is a pointless price range. I either want to bust down automars or I want to swatch. Like who spends $700 on a watch? It's such a fake category. A lot of people. Yeah, I think a lot of people reach up to that. No, totally. I'm kidding. I get it. Or whatever, which is fine. But when that all came out, I was just like – I don't wear watches. I don't really care. But I've bought a few in my life and I'm just like – I don't understand that category, that price point. But you're right. It's just aspirational. But that's the problem with the Apple. The Apple Watch is bigger than the whole Swiss watch industry, right? Just like in sales volume. So Apple Watch is like a monster. So all those little rollies you got in Brentwood, you know what I'm saying? You ain't getting no tracking info. You ain't seeing your heart rate on that little Pepsi bezel ain't showing you any information. Pepsi bezel. Yeah, you can't receive text messages on the presidential, unfortunately. Exactly, exactly. The Rose Gold Prezi don't receive text messages. Michael, do you think we're going to return to a classic hashtag menswear era style of dressing in the near future? Because I do. I definitely think this is going to cause it. Well, I think... Because people can't go anywhere and do anything and there's no sort of style being broadcast via Instagram and Fitbits and tunnel walks and all that bullshit, although NBA was happening. The worst dressed men in the world, somehow, that's the ones we get to see during this fucking tragic time. It's crazy. That's all we're left with. I think because a lot of that's not around, probably. I think people just now evaluating like shit they bought. And I think part of it was like we're all so busy. We just buy stuff because it's like this moment of making you try to find some happiness in buying something. And then you get it and you do that like every day or every week. And you're just on autopilot just buying shit. Not that you need it. And now we're all stuck at our houses like why do I have all this shit?

You've been copying gear, Michael and Cora, don't lie. I haven't bought much, to be honest. I bought a ton of cooking stuff. I bought a bunch of Hill City stuff because they're going out of business and I really like it. A lot of people like that brand. It's a Gap running brand, correct? It's owned by the Gap. Somebody made the best socks, maybe, or something. There's one product they were very good at. I have a bathing suit. layering stuff. They, they do like a Merino tee. Well, the fact that you, I figured you were a velibra guy like myself in Brimwood, but man, I guess not. I thought you would have a, like a nice bright turtle print, you know, 400 large with the carrying case for the bathing suit. You know what I'm saying? Jason, I don't even know. Jason's broke ass. I have seen all of their many, many dozens of terrible European ugly pattern swim trunks that cost $185. That's why I just got the plain name. I swim in my V-Lones and that's it, bitch. Jason, much like Justin Bieber, he wears his board shorts with Calvin Klein boxers underneath. It's every day, bro. I don't know why he does that, but he's always done it. It's like me. I wear my basketball shorts under my jeans. Adam Sandler style? You really do live in Brentwood. Chris, you were talking about going back to the hashtag menswear style of dressing. What would you consider that to be for a listener who might not know? What would be the generic uniform that you're describing? I mean... I have my take. Well, I think it's not going to be as extreme. Like, I don't think guys are going to be showing up in, like, double-breasted blazers with, like, a pompadour. So, like, the formal dress where it's, like, very, very put-together, crazy suit. I just think the sneakers and logo-driven and, like, that will... dissipate some, we'll be wearing shirts with buttons on them and shoes with hard soles and maybe some, you know, real jeans, not track pants or, you know. A lovely kerchief. In my case, Stone Island, yeah, my Stone Island swishy pants might have to, you know, get put back in the drawer for a little while. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think so too. I think people are just ready to wear real clothes at a certain point, at least for a little bit, and it might just go right away.

I think what happened in menswear in the last, I don't know, couple years hasn't been that interesting. And I think it's sort of just all been very derivative and kind of lazy. And I don't know. Damn, shots fired at all V-Lone wearables. So you're not rocking off-white. He's talking about everything, not just streetwear, Chris. I know Michael pulled up in the BMW wagon at John and Vinny's Brentwood with the full off-white on. You know what I'm saying? Let me get an L.A. woman to go. You know what I'm saying? I got my kids in the car. Hold on. That is so sexy. You know, we went to, which is a good sort of parallel to that story, is I went to this preschool tour in Brentwood. I actually missed the tour, so I went to a special. I went to, like, 20 fucking preschool tours. I went, and the first thing I pull right up, and there's a mom standing there and, like, head-to-toe off-white. And I was just like, no, I can't fucking do this. So you got out of the truck, and the full palm angel spit, gave her a pound, and just walked right in. That's fire. I love that, Michael. You were able to use your preschool as a biz dev tool the way most of Hollywood elite does. Exactly. I thought I had to go to Maxfield to see fits like that, but I just got to go to Brentwood and hit the local private schools. I mean, wow, what a movie. No, and I'm really pleased about your return to the content machine. Michael, drop that motherfucking Substack URL so our listeners can go subscribe. Oh, it's easy. It's acontinuouslyan.substack.com. And you know, Jason, if Michael was a rapper... It would be continuously leaning. You know what I'm saying? Chris, I think we can do better. I'll try to patch a better one in post. That's fine. I was hoping that I was going to get at least one Lil Baby reference in or something. We just gave it to you. What do you mean? Oh, Lil Baby the rapper. I'm sorry. Wait, can I ask you? This is a serious question I wanted to ask you. Are you a Lil Baby fan or a DaBaby fan? Oh, Lil Baby.

DaBaby had one, he had like a month where he was the hottest rapper in the world. And then people realized that every song sounded the same. And Lil Baby, also Lil Baby's like actually on the front lines, like doing shit for the community in a way that like I, we talked about this on the show with Joe Coscarelli, but like in a way that I think that there needs to be a young rapper stepping up and doing that kind of stuff. Because I think that kids want to see themselves in that kind of thing versus like an old head telling them what to do. Yeah, Dub Baby kind of like the Kevin Hart of rappers. Like he came in hot and now everyone is like, I get it. And I think I'm all set. Yeah, it's funny. But yeah, I don't, you know, no, we're Lil Baby Hive. We're Team QC Quality Control Entertainment. You know, we go. We go way back on this podcast with those guys, and I'm very happy about their success and what they've done for the city. Shout out to Coach. Yeah, there was actually an article in Rolling Stone about Lil Baby that I listened to. Yeah, the cover. He got a big cover story. My friend DeWang Valdez. Shout out to DeWang. Shout out to that. Oh, cool. I listened to it on Autumn, so that app that basically reads you stories on New York. We're fans of that here. We use that on this podcast. I listen to New Yorker articles and New Yorker articles on that. Yeah, I use it all the time too. And it was interesting to hear about his life, little baby. No, I agree. I think he's a really interesting character. And I think that he's going to kind of have a, I feel like he's poised to have like a pretty long career based on the moves he's making now. Okay. Well, you know where to find Michael, a continuous lean.substack.com, a continuous lean.com, at a continuous lean on all social media platforms. Or you can just pull up to Brentwood and let it spray. Michael, thank you for joining us. Honestly, it's a pleasure. I'm glad you're doing well. Congratulations on the second child. When you're ready for the cookout, let us know. Okay. Yeah, let us know. Let us know. We'll come spread. We'll do a 14-day quarantine in the yoga studio. Don't worry. We'll do a rapid test. I'll bring a rapid test. We'll just do it right away. This guy can't stop flexing.

This guy cannot stop flexing. This podcast is usually a little more understated than this. Can I get you a Fiji while you wait for your rapid test? Yeah, exactly. You actually have to get rapid tested when you come in our gated community, so it'll be really easy. I'm just kidding. That could absolutely be a true statement. Yeah, that sounds real. I have to hang up now before I get too angry how poor I am. Thank you, Michael, for joining us. We'll talk to you soon, bro. Thanks.