854. - Penn Badgley

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? It's a humid Tuesday down here in St. Augustine, Florida. Them jeans, what's going on, bro? A little humid for Glendale, overcast. I got back into town, had a great restorative Monday in Los Angeles. I was living very Lanzerhoffian, actually, having soup and salad for dinner. I wish I had a salad, but yeah, I see what you're saying. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Well, I read in GQ you had a vegetable. No, I did have a vegetable. I don't want to misrepresent. um, what I was served, but it was at night, I guess dinner was never anything but soup. So that's why I'm sort of triggered, you know, it's okay. But now I'm, I'm back to look, I'm back to eating and drinking as normal. Um, but I am still chewing vigorously when I think about it. Okay. You're, you're acting as if you're not, you're eating schedule and practices are normal when you say they're normal to you, just not normal to. normal to the average person walking around yeah i mean i've been thinking about you when i eat because i'm a slow eater and i be chewing and uh but i've sometimes you know if i'm eating something that's a little less digestible you know i'm working some uh short rib tendons or something like that you know of course if i'm just having some miso soup i don't need to chew it 40 times and give it a blessing for every mouthful but

Yeah, something more challenging. I would agree. I'm thinking, I'm reminding myself to get my champon. Last night, I went to a curiously named place here called Tacos My Blessing. See? And I had some mahi tacos that were fucking banging. Delicious. Okay. But I did think about, I was like really starting to get into scarf mode. scarf down mode okay and i was like you know what chris slow it down you're you're in st augustine florida you got nowhere to be you got nothing to do yeah let's let's let's chew these tacos until until they're within an inch of their life okay so you're eating like matthew mcconaughey just like no all green lights we don't have there's no yellows it's well there's never a need to run and also living down there in florida You know, you're on swamp time. It's real swamp time hours. It really is. Luckily, I found, so there's a good health food store, Diane's, that's right across the street. They got the smoothies. Don't dox yourself. I mean, it's not actually across the street. Fellas, he's right across from Diane's. But what I was going to tell you is, and this is something you and I can relate on, when I walked into Diane's after flying, I flew from New York to Jacksonville, then drove from Jacksonville to St. Augustine. smell of that health food store was the perfect distinct health food store smell that i think both you and i strive for that we're not going to get from a corporation like whole foods you have to get it from your local yeah sort of crunchy purveyor and i tell and i went there again this morning and i was like god damn it why does this smell make me feel so good when it's not even necessarily a good smell it's comforting it's because you know amazon Shipping facility. I mean, Whole Foods lost its corporate smell many moons ago, and now it smells like a butcher who doesn't care about his job anymore because he's working his seventh overtime shift. That's true. Because he's the only person they can afford to keep on. Do you think Whole Foods employees get free Amazon Prime, or do you think they have to pay for it? Hell no. Okay.

I didn't think so either. I didn't think Jeff was giving any discounts, but I had to, you know, except for obviously, you know, prime day, but I didn't know exactly. Just prime day. Yeah. Just prime day. That smell. I know you are, you're there in St. Augustine, Florida for a writer's retreat. So likely the thesaurus is already out, left open on the coffee table. What are some words to describe the smell of that? Whole Foods, I mean, sorry, of that health food store. Yeah, of Diane's. I would say that's really tough. Walk me through the elements. That's really tough. I know it's tough, Chris. I give my toughest vocabulary challenges to my brightest young writers in their 40s. There is an earthy and organic feeling to it, but it also still has to be cleaned. You know what I mean? So there's sort of an underpinning of some sort of solvent that is non-toxic. So it's a mix of fresh vegetables, tempeh. mountain valley and then also some sort of like you know how in the uk in the uk they clean with bottled water does not have a smell that i disagree i disagree with you actually i'm going to develop a bottle water scent i think that's a great idea okay is the smell coming from the bottle or the water inside the bottle jason these are questions i don't have the answer to just yet but it's something that i'm i'm gonna work on the nose nose but i think like in the uk they they often use vinegar to clean which gives everything a disgusting smell, like cutting vinegar with water to wipe off a table. Just use Windex. Like, get a life. You know what I mean? Okay, well, what about the smell of Fabuloso? I love that. You love that? I do love that. Because it just, I don't love it. It takes you back to your days in the barrio. I don't want my car to smell like it, or I don't want to bottle it into a candle. but I just mean that it's a smell that I equate with thorough cleaning. You know what I'm saying? You don't want your home, you don't want your foyer to smell like Fabuloso, any of the colors or flavors, but you do want a recently cleaned out garbage area or maybe a dumpster zone to smell of Fabuloso. When I'm looking for bread in the dumpster at Diane's later tonight, I want to have a whiff.

A fabuloso hitting my nostrils. That's for fucking sure. So we talked to Flynn Monday. Congratulations. His restaurant opens today, I believe. We talked about the awful Taylor Swift album. The Chiefs lost their third game in a row last night. Praise him. T-Rav must not have been getting toppy like he thought during release week. But we did not – sorry, go ahead. It seems like you're setting something up. No, no, no. Are you cheating something up? No, I'm not. I'm just going through what we already discussed. We did not discuss Lana Del Rey and Swamp Daddy upside-down iridescent glasses on the top of the head at Valentina. Well, that – due to my location right now, I'm seeing that exact headwear combination with the upside-down glasses. They look like they could be from a gas station. That's a classic Florida Southern man look. He did not invent that. Of course not. That is old school as they come. Every contractor south of the Mason-Dixon is rocking that look. But he is the first person to sit front row at Valentino with that. Give him his credit, Chris. Well, it's not Chanel, but sure. Yeah, he sat front row. He sat front row at Valentino. that the pants were custom. I don't know this for a fact, but I think that they took an existing pair of pants and tailored them, took the flare out, added the pockets to give Swamp Thing the swag he was looking for. And I have to say, I think it felt awesome. I think it was the perfect combination of him being his Swamp Thing self. with a little Valentino juge. Okay, so he took his Cabela's jeans into the atelier and had them sort of re-stitch it, in a Christian Soriano kind of way, make it your own? No, no, no. I think they're made from high-end Valentino fabrics. I just think they were modeled after something that he owns so that he would feel comfortable, which is...

I think very respectful of the house to do that for Lana's man, because I think it's like, it's probably a funny exercise. Can you imagine some like gay six year old man, the atelier being like, what is this? I just can't even imagine. But I think it was a sign of respect for Lana. And I thought they looked cool. I thought it was cool. Like, I think it's cool that. They did that, he did that, that everybody was game. I think it's progress. I agree. And I think it's good to push fashion forward because there's probably a lot of people out there, given the opportunity, would like to try to do something like that, but are just never given the opportunity. And he's showing visibility that you can get it out the mud, you can get it out the swamp. He's saying, look at your boy, I made it, I'm front row, and I'm doing it my way. You know what I mean? Sinatra voice? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. He really is, though. He's not compromising his Southern swag. I like that. It's beautiful. I think it's smart for everyone involved to sort of collaborate on that effort and make it a success versus one person holding their ground too much and it becoming bad, which is what would normally happen, I feel like, in these situations. Yeah, well, speaking of bad... known which barry weiss now running cbs news um i guess i don't i can't i was trying to think of the last time i watched cbs news and it must have been well i think that's i think that's why they're grasping for straws and again buying the free press and giving her 150 million dollars cash and stock but i um i i read it's an important distinction i had i read her memo to the staff i heard she had invigorating first day phone call you know about it felt felt like a it read like a cut scene from the newsroom was kind of the vibe getting the team fired up loving the news is a funny characteristic to have like obviously it's her business so loving it means financial stability which i understand the correlation between those two things but like what a thing to love because it's 99 bad

I don't know if I could dedicate myself to something that is almost bad all the time unless you're watching local news with feel-good stories about a grandfather rescuing a cat, which is not what she is going to be tackling. It's just a funny wording, I would say. It feels like it's from a time of yore. Yeah, I agree. You know, like Tim Dillon often references Rush Limbaugh as like his main inspiration. And it seems odd to idolize a conservative political commentator from the 80s and 90s. It does and it doesn't because Rush Limbaugh, whether you agree with him or not, is a savage broadcaster. You know what I mean? He's very good at that job, even though everything he's saying is stupid. He got millions of people to tune in and listen to him basically rant while he was on Oxys. So it's pretty powerful in the scheme of things, but I wouldn't want to exalt him the way Tim does, that's for sure. Okay. Didn't they tell you that I was a savage, says Rush Limbaugh. Didn't they let you know? Okay. We do have a guest today. pen bagley is is joining us he's got a new book with his uh podcast co-host sophie and novice called crush more essays on love loss and coming of age obviously you've seen him on stage and screen uh gossip girl you his band she had a band as well oh yeah john tucker must die which was a big deal because i think cartel was on the soundtrack of that that was a big thing for us whole brothers on that soundtrack let's let's tap in with the goat fellow podcaster and uh see what he's up to oh and she's mic'd up All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated.

but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking... Something put together, a cabinet. Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf. TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, how it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled. Over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money.

When life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code HOWLONG. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code HOWLONG with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Okay, for listeners at home, Penn's going to be whispering this entire episode because he is with child strapped to his chesticles. Well, actually, here's what I can do. I can stand up. This isn't live, is it? This feels live. You guys are already going. What's happening here? It's not live. We record the intro 15 minutes before the interview, so we're kind of primed up and ready to go. You're ready to go. Okay, no, that's good. I have to say, we've done 800 and whatever, 40 episodes of the show. And this is how long gone first. I will say that you've broken a seal that I didn't think we would ever get to. We've had a lot of performative male behavior on the show, but never somebody bring in their baby on the pod. This is never this deep. If you pull out a Dickens paperback and start reading, I'm going to get worried. You can't do three things at once.

So this is the reality of twins. I think twins plus we have four kids. We have four boys. Bro, you got hella kids, bro. Dude, I know. And you know what's wild? I know a fair number of people with twins. Like, you know, like enough that I'm still thinking to myself every day for these six weeks. They're six weeks and like a day right now. And I'm just like, how did you never tell us? How did you never tell us, like, you know, people talk about raising kids and babies and stuff, and it's like all the newborns, it's, you know, tough, tough, whatever. I'm like, one seems like a walk in the park. You know, you get the one down, there's the other, whole other one, and just... There's a whole other one. Unless you choose to neglect one, of course, but that is... frowned upon in polite society. It's kind of like no matter what, that's why he's on me right now. I think we know which one's the rock star pretty early. You know what I mean? Jason is a twin. My sister has twins. It's a common... It is something that at one point felt more rare, but now I do feel like I see and hear about it more. I can be your twin hero, baby. So if you have any cues, just let me know. Yeah, but this is big. So you have four kids and you still work, which is, I want to pat you on the back for that. Well, I mean, with four kids, you have to. I know that's right. Good point. Good point. I just mean it seems like you're doing a lot, you know, on all fronts. I mean, that's definitely the way it feels. Sometimes I wonder, am I doing, in fact, a lot? Why does it feel? like it so much but uh yeah okay well let's talk about um sleep score also because because you are with a child on there and you have a high quality mic it's creating an amsr sensation that i think our listeners are going to if this if this podcast costs money they would pay more yeah you should do subscribers well let's talk about your your sleep how many hours of sleep are we getting what what times of the day are we awoken

And what do we do in those times? So in these last six weeks in particular, it has been all over the place. Some nights it's zero, and then you know you're trying to make up during the day. And sometimes, I've got to say, the adrenaline you have from that makes the next day easier. It doesn't make life in general easier. I get that sensation when I'm jet lagged sometimes where there is something pumping that wasn't there before. Yeah. And by the way, I'm going to try this as long as it goes, and then I will be able to hand the baby off. But I just figured I'd give my wife a break because good Lord. You're sweet for saying that. But, I mean, it is, I know what you mean, that little boost that you get from being up all night. But as somebody who does things where your face is on display, not always best for the way you look in the face and eye region, you know? No, no, no. But thank God right now I'm promoting a book. So it's, you know, there's a little better. Well, I mean, the leeway in the way that I present. I should say we do half of the time have a night nurse because what we have found with twins is like, you actually just can't power through. I mean, you need in some way a third adult. You just can't do it. I remember the first night I was with the twins, you know, doing the whole, this is the first time we've done bottles as well. Like, because when you have one. And mother is able, you know, just breastfeeding the whole time. And that's its own thing. She's already been through so much. Now we got two at a time. Right. So, you know, I'm doing bottles all the time, which is like this whole it's like a full time job, just washing and sterilizing. But first night I was with them all night. I was just like, all right, just make it to six, make it to six, make it to six. Of course, what I was somehow not realizing is that at six, then I have to be with our five year old, you know, all day. This was just before school had started. So the first three days, I mean, I literally didn't sleep. And I was like, I'm going to die. Did it get psychedelic at some point? Were you seeing? Oh, yeah. Well, one of the things it keeps me saying in those long night hours, I just I do love to meditate. I do pray. And so, like, I was just kind of in this really no place. You were in the F out. These kids were God. I need you more than ever tonight.

What is your meditation style and how long have you been doing it? That's an interesting question. It's definitely evolved. The way I meditate now is only ever with prayer or it's more active. I don't just meditate to zone out and try to get to this place of non-thought. I also don't know that that's possible, but I'm a member of the Baha'i faith and I became a Baha'i just about 10 years ago. What I'll do is I'll read some of the Baha'i writings. originally written in Arabic and Persian by Baha'u'llah, but now translated into English. And I'll just like, I'll kind of like take a paragraph of that and I will meditate on that. When you say meditate on it, are you repeating it over and over or are you just reading it and then digesting it sort of? You know, what's amazing is that it's always a little bit different. I'm not really, like sometimes I'll just, I'll be able to break it down word by word and just kind of almost like half memorize it, close my eyes. Okay, here's an example. Here's just an example. Let's see if I can remember it right now on the spot. Manifest for me, Daddy. Yeah, so I think the first of this book called The Hidden Words, it goes, O Son of Spirit, possess a pure, kindly, and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty, ancient, imperishable, and everlasting. That's just an example. So what I might and I've been meditating on that particular word probably for, you know, literally upwards of 10 years. Sometimes I'll just be like, oh, son of spirit. Like, what? What is that? You get three words in and you're like, shit, I got to think about this a little bit. Oh, son of spirit. OK, OK. You're like, is that me or is that you? Yeah, right. And that's a pure, kindly and radiant heart. So sometimes I'm like, OK, I focus on. Pure, kindly, and radiant. Sometimes I'm just at the word possess, and I'm like, possess a heart? Does one? So wait a second. So of all the things that I'm meant to possess, this is like first and foremost. Oh, yeah, because you know what? I forgot the first line. My first counsel is this. So it's, oh, son of spirit, my first counsel is this. Possess a pure, kindly, and radiant heart. So the fact that it's like my first counsel.

possess. So you just get a little insight. My first counsel was a court-appointed lawyer to get out of a shoplifting charge. Do I have a spirit? Or do I possess it? Is that different than having? Because you think about a pure heart. It's like what Baha'u'llah says about any word truly, but if it has this sort of sacred origin. any scriptures from any religion like um of course it's true but uh it has sort of infinite meaning and so i really do feel like you can just spend as much time as you want on these words pen how long have you been this zenned out because i feel like you are considering what you're telling us now and that you have four children you seem very calm and centered and i imagine maybe that wasn't the case at some point you know when when was your heart not pure because you feel like a pure you're a pure hearted motherfucker if you ask i know your ass wasn't born with a pure heart i know i know it seemed to be at 4 27 this morning when my five-year-old woke me up that's uh that was when the heart was really i was behaving impure one could say yeah um no lie right now the six weeks and one day that I have had four boys with the addition of these twins because the oldest is 16. So he's kind of like on his, you know, he's, he's in a more, I mean, he needs us more than ever, of course. And we recognize that, but there's, it's different, right? So the five-year-old is dependent in a completely different way. I will tell you every day with my five-year-old right now requires me to grow. And if I don't, it is bad news. This is the nicest way any parent has ever put this. Look, it forces me to grow, and I'm looking at that as a positive. Your 16-year-old forces you to send him $100 every six hours on Apple Pay, and your 5-year-old, you have to grow spiritually, mentally, from the inside and out. Sounds like you might have a teenager. No, no, no. We just still act like one. I'm just shitty.

He asked me for $100 every six hours. So a 16-year-old, in your position, is this at a point where the 16-year-old thinks you're cool, or do they think you are not cool? Yeah, that's an interesting one. So he's not my biological son, and his dad is in the picture. I'm his stepdad. You're the dad who stepped up. Yeah. Well, to be fair, to his dad's credit, his dad is in his life. I mean, you know. There was a period of difficulty. That's cool, though, because now he's got two motherfuckers he can hit up for the hundred bucks. So he's in a good spot. He's got twins as well. And he's playing you guys. He's also got a grandmother. Grandmother loves opening the wallet. That's a tale as old as time. So he's 16. You guys live in New York. So I can imagine he's pretty advanced. Definitely the way city kids grow up, definitely, yeah. He's born and raised in Brooklyn. Okay, so what is he into, and does he think you are cool, and has he discovered maybe some of your past, let's say, on the World Wide Web? And how big are his pants? Yes. So he definitely thinks that I'm not cool. proper parent child relationship that's how it should be i think i think that's a traditional how it should be that's a sign that's a sign that like i'm probably doing some kind of job right yeah i would agree i would agree he has his own agency i'll say to myself like wait do you actually think i'm really cool and look up to me i mean it's not clear right now you know so i mean you know the fact that i have this crazy thing of fame and celebrity. And I know that that adds, I can only imagine, you know, when his friends learn about who I am, I'm, I'm sure that's such a weird, we've spoken about it a little bit, but, but not since he's been, um, I mean, we've spoken a lot about it, but not since he's really been such a conscious, like person, you know, like 16. So actually we're due for, uh, we're due for a birds and the bees about fame.

yeah i really am curious i really like he's got it because you know his friends are all of the age where gossip girl on my show you are are both if they want to watch him it's a big thing you know and and so i would imagine he's wrestling with something there he's he's gossip he's gossip curious is what you're saying like i know that a lot of your friends are probably watching a show that i was on yeah i'm not gonna spoil it but um if you ever want to talk well are his does he have other i i imagine that he has some other friends from school whose parents are in a similar business or at least like a musician or whatever you know that that usually i feel like brooklyn private schools there's a certain kind of parent and it ain't an accountant no it's true and it's absolutely true we for that reason we did move out of the city for a year because we wanted him to have a very different high school experience but he kind of was like I like my NPR friends, dad. He's like, fuck you, dad. And you're like, did you just call me dad? I wanted the Baha'i faith. That's Iranian in origin. Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, yes, Iranian in origin. But of course it's global and celestial and all otherworldly. That's a nice way to put it, global and celestial, yeah. Yeah, I would say that. It's, yes. Have you adopted any other Iranian cultural behaviors, cuisines, etc.? The only thing I can claim to is just being more familiar with Iranian food than the typical white American. You know things about yogurt that the average guy does. I'm a different kind of white boy. I like my rice burnt on the bottom. Y'all don't know. You even know that. Somehow, of all cultures, I don't know what I knew about Iranian culture before this. And now I simply know a lot more Iranians. And therefore, I'm just aware of the history and the culture. Jason and I both have weird early ties to...

Iranian culture so we both have an understanding of it as well not not to the extent you do probably but no I mean I because here's the thing even though it's Iranian in origin the Baha'i faith I think it has become so so diverse in the way that it's it's expressed and understood um around the world that like i i really only know like these super you know what i know i know the way iranians will kind of make fun of their own culture so i know like all i really know is the stereotypes just like just like anything else so i really don't have this deep understanding of it you know about that and you also know that you are not allowed to say it but you're allowed to laugh to yourself when they do it Well, were you just in a place of, like, searching for something, or did this come to you sort of on a silver platter? Like, who put you on? Maybe a co-host of a podcast? Yeah. Well, my co-hosts are Baha'is, actually. But that's, you know, I met them long after I discovered the Baha'i thing. So let's see. I definitely was in a period of search. I was absolutely in a period of search. You know, it really started when I was about 24, and I was in between seasons on Gossip Girl. I was having that pretty universal experience for anybody who does experience fame and wealth. And at the same time, they're not the same thing, but I was getting both. That's right. I was having that universal discovery. Oh, this isn't doing a damn thing to make me. satisfied or happy or content sorry so you're saying i'm hot i'm rich i'm young i'm famous and i'm still empty on the inside bottle service is free for me currently and i'm still filling a hole in my heart yeah yeah i walked into avenue with six dudes and it was fine but i need i need more i need more yeah yeah no it really was that and you know initially what i was seeking um i mean honestly what i

By the way, if anybody can hear these gurgles every now and then, it is my little infant on my chest. If it's confusing, it sounds like a... I don't know what it would sound like. I'll use AI to remove the gurgles, don't worry. I was initially seeking out some way to... I wouldn't have said God. I wouldn't have said I want to... even pray I don't think was a word I would have been comfortable with but what I was seeking was like spiritual truth which is to say just what is the truth of what's going on here what are we doing here I mean we of course all ask that question see the thing is the thing is Penn I don't ask that question actually and that might be my that's part of my problem and maybe part of my gift right also a gift yeah I was well I was raised in the south and it was very, we went to church Sunday, you know, it was a very big part of my life. So when I rebelled, it was like, all this shit is stupid. I don't want any part of this. Well, definitely. I was raised very much in an, in a not anti-religious, but like a religious, it was just, my parents had been burned. Well, my grandparents, I think were burned by the Catholic church in various ways. So my parents were that, that first, that first generation of like truly non-religious American. You know, and I just inherited that completely, you know, and never questioned it. Never. In fact, the word God, I'm pretty sure made me if anybody took it seriously, that made me uncomfortable. Religion seemed very much like the I just sort of adopted the Marxist view. Like it's it must be the opiate of the masses. These damn sheeple. Follow the money, brother. Hashtag. I mean, I was I was thoughtful and sensitive. And like the first time that I was. Opened up to anything past. Well, you know what? It was art. Art and music was like religion or spirituality for me, the closest thing to it. And I think for anybody who is anywhere from atheistic to agnostic, that's true. I think artistic expression is the space where you get that mysterious existential thing, right? Film can do that so beautifully, like so beautifully. Okay. So for me, it was that until I experienced.

You know, until I ate mushrooms and I was like 17 years old. And it really, you know. Whoa, bro. Everybody can have fun. But I frankly was like, this is far too serious to be taken lightly. You know, that was the way I felt about it. So it broke you wide open. Yeah. And I would say it just began to crack me open. Okay, okay. And then, you know, music continued to be my lifeline to something spiritual. So the way that I thought about it somewhat rationally or logically was, okay, if there is a truth being revealed through the ingestion of naturally occurring elements, okay, so then I suppose what I'm seeking for must be this, is it a deeper relationship with the earth? Is any kind of spirit or God or whatever, is it the earth that I'm looking to get to here? Who has the most authentic and... true relationship with the earth and the answer there is generally indigenous cultures so then i start to get indigenous uh you know cultures peoples that that's an incredibly hard thing to do in an authentic way um you know if it's not naturally happening for you sure but i was trying nonetheless and then in columbia when i was staying with this tribe there and i'm not you know don't want to romanticize it it was not like um It wasn't the Four Seasons Bogota? Well, yeah, no. But it wasn't extremely, it wasn't a hardship, rustic thing either. It was on a reserve. The most we had was running water, no electricity. It was just enough of the rustic elemental experience that it gave everything more gravity. The Kogi that we were meeting didn't speak Spanish except for a few of them, so we had these Spanish liaisons. um and spanish-speaking liaisons and uh and and the sense i got was that the kogi were just kind of like who who who are these white people from america what what what do we want we we want to have uh you know they consider themselves stewards of the earth and um wanted to impart lessons and i think they saw this ragtag of like you know kids they were just like what what are we doing you know um they were of course immensely respectful and dignified and disciplined but

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't want it to seem like I was befriending in an authentic way anyone who can claim indigenous identity. I didn't have access to that. But I understood, okay, this is not happening in an authentic way. It costs a lot of money to come here. I have to travel. Surely if there's something true, surely if there's something real, it has to be universally accessible to all. And it has to be free. It has to be truly for everyone, no matter who you are. So something about the way that I was seeking it out just wasn't ringing true, but I was nonetheless starting to, I was starting to pray at this point. I'm probably 25, 26, 27. Interestingly enough, I had met a Baha'i down there in Columbia, this other young 24-year-old white dude from New York City who I, frankly, because of... I was like, not interested in you. I'm not interested in this friendship. I got this at home. I don't need this. Exactly. Lo and behold, it was exactly what I was looking for. These teachings that he would share with me very indirectly and slowly and subtly over time, it really was just, we'd be meeting up at different protests or we'd be meeting up for different organizing events, just something. And what he seemed to name, better than anyone else i'd be speaking with was how i could how i needed a framework to link my own spiritual transformation to that of the transformation of society and how those two things are necessary for each other and so and it was more coherent than anything else i was aware of wasn't aware that it was part of a religion and if in fact i had been i would have been like all right peace So you just thought this guy was, like, wise beyond his years, basically. Exactly, exactly. And that's partly true, but it also was that he was, you know, he was becoming a Baha'i himself. So he was becoming, he wasn't raised. No. He discovered it and then passed it on to you. He was still pledging, you were older than him, and yet he was an elder to you, in many ways. He was the exact same age. Nonetheless. A twin, something to think about, Ben. Yeah, yeah.

But nonetheless, yeah, it was a profile. And we're still good friends. We're still very good friends. Okay. This coinciding with like Gossip Girl being the biggest TV show in the world, you know, for a pretty good chunk. Yeah. Seems like those two things might be at odds with each other. Is that safe to say? Well, definitely. I mean, I think this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world... writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash how long for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code how long to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, La Grange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina.

Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. Summer is here, and Kroger is your destination for hot savings. Find unique items at low prices with a wide assortment of products from our exclusive brands. Fire up the grill with cookout classics like burgers and brats. And don't forget, delicious produce like fresh melons. Or beat the heat with frozen treats while chilling poolside. Whatever your summer plans, Kroger makes it easy to enjoy high-quality, fresh food at affordable prices. Kroger. Fresh for everyone. Well, the truth is, I was never a crazy partier. I was not. I was always... at most moderate i think i would maybe spend you know i might be able to spend a a night or a weekend or a couple weeks like going hard alongside those who were going real hard you know and i would like kind of have enough social fun that i'd be like okay but it just it it i think i would always bottom out pretty hard you know the the so-called come down like not just but just for just from the appearance I it always hit me real, real, real hard. And that's sort of the space I found myself in after, you know, after after just like a season and a half of Gossip Girl. And keep in mind, I started working when I was I started working professionally when I was 12 years old in television and film. So that's not even counting the years I spent doing just like community theater and other stuff in Seattle. Yeah. So I moved to L.A. and was working at 12 years old. I was working full time. as number one on the call sheet of a show and working 12-hour, 14-hour days at 15 for the first time. So by the time I'm 20 on Gossip Girl, I'd already been on like three failed series. I'd done countless guest stars. I'd done a bunch of independent films. The bloom is off the rose. You're ready to hang your hat up. Yeah, I mean, I'd done a decade of like, I'm actually in a rare class of a working actor. And it's this incredibly frustrating hustle and racket.

And I'm not at all creatively fulfilled. I've not really had a teenage period to just. It's some shit where like you and your mom live in the Oaks or the Oakwood or whatever. But we live very close to it. Yeah. And you get it done. And then you look up and you're like, shit, I'm 20. Yeah. And this is what I'm doing. I mean, there's no other, you know, you're deep in. Right. And those alongside me, you know, a lot of my friends by the end of this period. towards our 20s were really not doing well. Like some of them, in fact, those closest to me were really not doing well. You mean mentally, physically, or you mean career-wise? Well, all. All. Yeah. And I just saw how this industry used up people real fast. What do you think you had that these people didn't? Were you just a hard worker or do you think it's sort of just God's plan? Yeah. I mean. That's hard to name. I don't even think it's in God's plan to dare I say for anybody to be miserable and fail. I think it's I think I think he's got the sauce, bro. That's all it is. Well, sometimes that really is. It's that simple. It's like I know what I'm doing and I'm good at it and the right things came my way and I got it done. I certainly was good enough at it. And I mean, you know, the strange cruelty of like. trying to become an actor is actually here's my whole outlook on it and it's not an encouraging one for anybody who wants to do this sorry um is that actually failure is the rule and success is the exception it's an industry that attracts so many people and it rewards the tiniest tiniest fraction of the few with success and even within that success like look i'm still grinding trying to do the thing that i really want to do you know like that's that's that's the way i feel and you have to check so many boxes that are so superficial in order to even succeed. Well, you've had a lot of, I mean, you have a great head of hair, and I think that has helped you. Are you kidding? Yeah, without that. I've seen you have, I was going to ask, because I've seen several haircuts throughout the years, and I just, I think they all work. But even with all these benefits and talent and everything, those who do end up succeeding, the 0.000 percentage of it, oftentimes a fluke, luck, just a random instance of...

I've heard somebody say that luck is what happens when, like, opportunity meets preparation. I think that's, you know. It's very drill sergeant advice, but I agree with it. Yeah, right. And I think there's some truth to that, but it's only a fraction, at best, of the truth. Because in any business, but in this business, I mean your success is based on pure superficiality. you know, great actors are great actors and I'm not putting myself in that class. Like great actors do do something that is incredible and powerful and undeniable. You have somebody like Philip Seymour Hoffman, who I actually think was very handsome and charismatic, but his talent, you know, was clearly what caused him to succeed. And yet, you know, you think about like, what do we really think? that Felix Umar Hoffman is like one of very few who can produce that kind of gravitas. There's people all over the damn world who can do that. It's still, you know, he still belongs to a certain look, a certain kind of, a certain kind of gravitas that we, that we like. It's a, it's very male. It's very like, you know, so, so there's, so there's, there's all, so anyway, all I'm trying to say is this industry rewards an incredibly, very few people. And, you know, I watched it eat up. the friends I grew up alongside. So by the time I get to Gossip Girl and I'm 20 years old, I already felt like an exhausted veteran of the game. And alongside me, everyone else felt pretty fresh-faced and wide-eyed. And I was like, I am done. I am so done. But being on a proper show like that that runs for a while... it's kind of the most normal job you could have as an actor. Because it's like, you sort of, obviously you get time off, but you kind of go clock in, you do your thing, you clock out. It's not summer camp. You don't have to go to New Zealand and put on prosthetics. It's like a pretty normal day today. It is a pretty normal day today. And even though the hours can be quite long and it kind of takes over your life. And then the fame part also.

definitely takes over your life it is within its own strange world it can be a very ordinary feeling job especially because crews you know being on a set with the crew very working class you know like a lot of construction workers and so actually it's a the irony of a set is that it can feel like a very grounded place to work yeah no i mean it kind of makes sense you're seeing the same people every day it's a pretty wide mix i mean you know there's whatever 15 or 20 actors but then there's a hundred regular people which is why i never leave the trailer because then you have to look at all those people oh jason does yeah jason gets really upset when he has to leave the trailer it's the whole thing gotta knock hard to get him out of there you gotta knock hard to get out of there yeah i guess i've always heard that from actors and like read about it over the years that like for a lot of people that's the goal because it's the most normal way to do it for a living. Yeah, definitely. Well, yeah, I bet you nobody starts out thinking they want to be a series regular. I think everybody starts out wanting to do film. Oh, totally, totally. I mean, maybe not less so now, just because TV is different. Last few years, it's different. I think we're probably similar in age, so I can imagine that that was the case for you. It's like, well, I want to be... on the big screen yeah yeah i think what i what i what i discovered over time is that i had actually really never had the opportunity to to experiment creatively because i started professionally so young and what did you do were you on were you on like soap operas and shit like what were you doing i had i had done a soap opera when i was 14 i did just you know kind of countless guest stars from like 12 to 14 Then you get more, like, recurring roles. And by the time I was 15, I was series regular on a Warner Brothers show, and that continued. I mean, Gossip Girl was Warner Brothers. Actually, You, my show You, was still produced, even though it was Netflix. It was produced by... by Warner Brothers and some of the same people. Warner Brothers said, come on in, it's warm in here. You're a company man, Penn, I like that, it's admirable. It's old school, I like that. No, it's true, I mean, I really, the conclusion of my show, You, was the conclusion of a, let's see, of an over, of a 20, almost a 25 year period.

of working for the same... The frog was paying the bills. The frog was keeping the lights on. Yeah, it's true. And, you know, and so in that sense, you know, being on that kind of show, a big show, there is something that is extremely familiar about it to me and is like a normal job. Yeah, totally. I mean, anything becomes normal if you do it enough. You know, that's just what it is. But you, did you guys, you was like what, like five seasons or something? Five, yeah. Was it a situation where this was the plan, we're going to cut it off here, or was it like it feels like the right time to stop? They'd always said something like three to five seasons. We knew more than most shows that it's like if this thing jumps a shark, it's going to be real ugly. Most people can't take the foot off the gas if the money's still coming in and the overlords are saying, you know, the ratings are good. But I appreciate knowing when to say when. Yeah. I mean, it's just when you've got a leading man like Joe Goldberg, I think you have to know you can't just keep this thing running forever. So it had this built in kind of limitation, which I was thankful for. And I think, you know, we all agreed it was definitely time to end it. Yeah, I think that's power. I think it's powerful to know. I think most people. have a hard time bowing out no matter what the industry is once they're you know once it's sort of come to a natural end yeah it's very true well now that you have a podcast you have the book yeah now that you're coming for our fucking money we don't have any wb checks so why don't you stay in your fucking lane all right big dog is is there is that making you a little more selective about future roles now that you have the stability of a podcaster's life and author's life? Yes, the great income. The low-paying stability is really doing a lot for me and my family. Well, when you don't have to split it with a bunch of people, it's actually pretty good. That's true. Yeah, well, you know, kind of like dovetailing nicely with what got us on there, which was this sort of period of spiritual awakening that I had where I would eventually become a Baha'i. You know, the truth is,

You would ask me about, did I feel like, you know, the spiritual path was diametrically opposed to the professional path I was on? And the truth is, I did. And actually, I think if I had not become a Baha'i... the way I was viewing it all was becoming kind of dichotomous. So I was really seeing it like kind of more black and white, more binary, more competitive and oppositional. And I was really thinking, I can't continue doing this. So I did play music for a while and I started to kind of experiment in a way that I felt like I never had been able to creatively. When you talk to your agents and your team, you're like, you know what, I'm going to make a record. Were they like... please don't do that? Or were they like, yeah, bro, do your thing. We've made enough money. Agents might be thinking to themselves, oh, my God, this is the worst idea anyone's ever had. But the way they'll go is they'll go, okay, okay. You playing bass, you playing keys, or are we kind of the food man of this operation? Yeah. You know, look, they were supportive. And I think after a show like Gossip Girl, everyone expects... somebody to step off the gas for a second and just sort of reorient. And so I did that. I ended up becoming a Baha'i. But the interesting thing about that is that I credit it and the framework that I would then adopt for being the thing that allowed me to see, oh no, I don't have to go to the mountaintop. I can, but I need to bring the mountaintop to my life. Every moment is the mountaintop. And frankly, when you're parenting, you're just like, that's... That's its own mountaintop every moment. Like I said, when I say that I have to learn every day and grow right now with my five-year-old, otherwise I lose it, I mean, I mean it. It's real. So you have to bring the top to you. It's a top-from-home lifestyle now. Yeah, right. And so my show You, the beginning of a process that I'm now kind of entering another stage of, which is, you know, it was enough in the milieu and the wheelhouse that I was known for and what I was familiar with.

Right. It was like we all know the kind of the joke and the through line that Joe Goldberg is a little bit like Dan Humphrey. If he just got his own show and picked up a knife. This motherfucker is brooding as hell. He's hot. Let's get the shirt off every four episodes. We're good to go. Yeah, exactly. The knife is a big difference. I want to be clear. It changes the vibe in the room. I mean, you know, he kills. I don't forget how many. You really be killing, though. Yeah, you really be killing. And so, you know, that was kind of, for me, creatively, what it's been, and professionally, I think it's like, all right, this shares enough cultural DNA. Some would say quite a lot. Some would say less so with a show like Gossip Girl. But then the show is completely oriented around. my character and how he sees things and the voiceover. So it actually became a very engaging and very technical role where I'm really able to do something very different and have a very different experience and flex a bit and learn and grow. But it was still very much like a TV show. And it's never been my goal to be... to just be in tv I think well I'm sorry to hear I'm sorry to hear they passed you up for the naked gun reboot because I think Liam I think Liam did a great job but I I think you could have stepped in yeah well talk to me in maybe 25 years they have the vision you know um so so now look I I don't even have enough perspective because the show came out only six months ago or something like that it's last season uh I'm I'm in a truly new stage Oh, bless you. My little one is coughing and sneezing here. I'm really in a new stage. Part of that, you know, the podcast kind of was happening almost like this, this sort of side quest for the last several years that then when we had the opportunity to write a book, I was even like, oh man, that's not easy and that's going to take a lot of time. You're like, how come Dax Shepard doesn't have to write a book? What the fuck is this?

And I really, you know, but but then in writing the book, I actually I learned so much about what it is to craft a good story. And just about story structure, even. I mean, it's all it's all, you know, essays of of my own coming of age and then my co-host's coming of age. There's three of us. We each wrote something like five or six essays. And I, you know, for something that I did not see coming and something that I didn't even initially really want to do. But I'm also very much a team player and we're democratic in the way we make our decisions. And, you know, doing the book, it was like, okay, all right, all right. And this will be a nice sort of crown to the podcast. Who knows how much longer we're going to do it. Like, all right, this is a nice, interesting project. We have this thing called Podcrushed. It turned into a book called Crushmore. And, you know, that's cool. That's a cool little arc. That's cool. We're cool. We're good. We're fine. More than most podcasters get. Right, right. And I have to say, though, what I did in writing this was kind of dig into the stuff you're asking me about coming of age, growing up in Hollywood, and particularly my teen years, which were, frankly, very, very dark. They were my darkest years by far and away. 12 to 20 was the hardest time of my life. That's partly because I think that's characteristic of that time, and then partly because of where I was. And the people I was surrounded with, like writing the book for me, I think, is probably a much deeper experience than it will be for anybody reading it, because there's so much that I left out in order to tell something of a coherent, somewhat brief, you know, punchy story. But man, I had to more or less. address and understand like things of my youth that led me to where i am now in order to like tell a cohesive and relevant story you know what i mean to to meet the reader who presumably would already know who i am and be somewhat interested in stories about you know that uh i have to understand the past and same goes for my co-hosts and you know so so so now i find myself in a place where the role that i might do next as an actor

Very, very, very hard to say. There's a few opportunities that have come along in order to sign on to another show. I mean, I know what a commitment that could be. Well, especially if it works. That's the problem. You're right. When you guys did the book, did the three of you just kind of go into your corners and do your thing and then send it to the editor? Yeah, we really didn't have anything to do with each other in the writing process. For the most part, you know. Because you guys famously don't get along in real life at all, right? I don't text them anyway, so it wasn't a big deal. You all have your separate buses on tour and things like that. Yeah, right. So we really were just kind of riding in our corners, and it's a surprisingly, for that, it's really cohesive. Considering that, it still kind of worked. Okay, well, you were mentioning. the ages of 12 to 20 ish as your darkest years of, of teen hood. And I think many people can agree with that. Yeah. Um, ourselves included probably that time you had left New York parents split up left, left Washington state. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Left Washington state moved to LA. Yes. So those darkest times were in LA. So when you go back to Los Angeles, is it comfortable now? Is it, are, you know, are there ghosts? In them hills? Yeah. No, but specifically because like, you know, sorry to keep referencing it, but it really is this, it has this fundamental effect on my life. So it's just relevant at all times. So, you know, becoming a Baha'i has meant that now anywhere that I go, there may only be one or two Baha'is or there might be one or 2,000, but it means that I truly have someone to connect with there. you know, there is this framework for community building that is, that is, that is part of what is so incredible. And it sounded, it sounded like AA a little bit in some ways where like you can go anywhere and there's going to be a meeting. It's, I would say in that respect, it's, it's, it's, it's, they're very similar, you know, it's this because fundamentals to the AA program is like, and all of the anonymous things, the anonymous, the anonymous family of brands. Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the 12 steps is, uh,

is this spiritual component. And I think even for an atheist who like chooses to substitute something else, it's still, you know, I've heard, I've heard some, but I've been a sort of like a atheistic friend who's, who's big into the steps when she said drunks stands for, no, God is an acronym for group of drunks. Damn, that's good. I've never heard that before. I have profound faith and devotion to God. It didn't offend me in the least bit because what I hear is you're talking about human relationships. You're talking about camaraderie. You're talking about friendship and support. The invisible stuff in life, no matter how you choose to view it and call it, it's the invisible stuff that makes up a life. So this framework for deepening those bonds in a person's life, building community, starting to be able to read that invisible part of your life better. Becoming a Baha'i for me has enabled me to go to places like L.A. where, you know, it would be, I think, full of ghosts for me. I mean, some of my friends literally have died, you know, as a result of addiction. So it's quite literal. But it's not because I... And the L.A. Baha'i community is actually really rad and really vibrant. But you're coming at it with different tools, basically. You're coming at it ready to rock with a support system, so you don't have to go to that place. And I didn't necessarily expect that. I wasn't like, I am a Baha'i now, and now it will be different. I just had to move out there for the second season of my show. And I discovered that I was actually having this really incredible time. Okay, so when you get to a new city like that, You're trying to find your network of people that you can connect with. Do you just contact old friends? Is there a Raya? Is there a Bahaya? Is there a seeking Bahá'ís? I think there is technically still, like leftover 80s, there is a number that people can call to just be like, hey, I'm looking for the Bahá'í community. I forget that number.

two two i don't know that's really that's actually really funny and i think more i love that more things should have that just call the number we'll set you up with somebody it's not sex stuff it's just normal or or you know in a hottie fleiss kind of way that's not bad either ham in town yeah yeah so totally i think what i what tends to happen for me is that it's like uh somebody will know somebody and i'll just be able to be connected organically if it's a matter of connecting to a Baha'i community somewhere. In fact, the one time that it was totally inorganic and I was like, I'm just going to go on the website for the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of this country and just literally email them. I was in the Philippines, in Manila, on a bookstore. You're like, what's up? It's Penn. I'm here in Manila for a couple days. You guys got anybody to send over? The idea that I was emailing, because also, yeah, the person I emailed, It was not, I think, somebody who should just be fielding random emails. They're like, nobody sent an email to this address. I'm the CEO down here. What is this? Some famous guy is looking for an old lady to have him over for dinner. I don't know what's going on. It's amazing because I was in Manila and I was on tour and, you know, everybody from the network was saying, like, it's not safe enough for you to just. go out like you need a security guard at all times are you popping there or is it just dangerous it well i suppose it's a mixture of both all things sure sure sure sure but so i email the baha'is there and then like you know this group of filipino people show up at my hotel like let's go to a volcano and we like you know just go and and we two days together i didn't know these people at all but we just we had this kind of this commonality That was the first time in my life that I experienced what people can call like, well, I don't know what to call it. I suppose it's community, but it's a different. It's called a true faith, not to quote new order. Well, because it was like, this is based on nothing tangible. This is based on nothing. But it was really, really lovely. It was really lovely. Yeah, because if I did that, it'd be somebody from, you know.

that knows me from instagram or whatever and we have a similar interest in whatever it might be you know what i mean or they listen to this show but i feel like this is this brings you a uh a real uh wide swath of folks with a similar i bond with people basically it begins and ends with cool restaurants you can visit in my city. And you're like, so I know that mountains are the source of all human life and existence. Shall we visit a grand volcano and bask in its glory? Also, if the Baha'i faith is, it is mountain-oriented, right? Mountain is the, that's like the heart of the world, kind of? Oh, well, I mean, no. But I would say, I would say if anything, if anything Baha'is, and I think many people of spiritual, traditions have felt this and said this and see this too. If anything, I would just say all of physical reality is just a metaphor for spiritual reality. Actually, not the other way around, which is to say that consciousness is first and matter is second. The leading little book for you that's pure science-based by Donald Hoffman. It's called The Case Against Reality. Brilliant book about how the leading frontiers of physics are it's leading those who are on the absolute cutting edge to cast aside this assumption that consciousness comes from matter you know that consciousness arises from matter that it must be some sort of process of computation ultimately blah blah blah anyway i was a bit when you when you all right hold on when you met your wife were you already into this shit and she had to get on board or did you guys kind of get into it together A little bit of both. Okay, sure. She was curious, and you sort of led her to water? We met at the same time that I was seeking. Okay, so she was like, I like this guy. He's into this. All right, let's just ride the wave. We would meditate together. We had both learned the same kind of meditation practice. Earlier you asked me. I've tried a lot of different kinds of meditation, and we both happened to share that at that time.

we both would eventually share our last drink together, even though I don't think either one of us knew it would be the last drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so we were both... spiritually seeking she was not and is not behind but she loves a lot of the she you know she loves everything about it um and she likes to surround herself with baha'is she's like it's better that you're into this than like ufc and stuff you know yeah i guess this is better than cocaine and football so let's rock well let's let i want to i want to talk a little bit about um you mentioned finding the spirituality going into music at an early age, but were you listening to, you know, quote-unquote spiritual music, or were you finding the spirituality in, you know, the new Interpol EP? Well, no, I mean, it wouldn't have been Interpol for me, but I totally respect everybody who is finding it in that. The main music absolutely was and is spiritual. Like, that's what it is. I mean, again, what is it? It's calling out of the invisible something that can make, you know, a person cry. Like, it's deeply spiritual. And for me, I always did tend towards rap and jazz and R&B, like soul music. And not for nothing, that is probably of all the American music. I suppose there's country, but country never really did anything for me. Speak for yourself, brother. Sure, and that's fair. That's fine. But country and soul are the two genres that are the most overtly connected to spirituality. to even religion, I would say. You know, they're both like country singers and a soul singer will both sing about God. Yeah, that's true. No, you're right. That's true. And for whatever reason, country just really didn't do it for me. But soul did, and gospel even more so as I would get older. Even, you know, I would say saying the word God and taking it seriously would have made me uncomfortable. But listening to someone sing about it did not make me uncomfortable. That's actually, that's pretty...

fair i think but at 15 were you like listening to third eye blind or were you into some you know he was listening to his deangelo deangelo yeah deangelo was always my number one from like what about what about maxwell the unplugged album is a classic for me you know he is great and listen shout out to maxwell i actually we were we were like hanging in the same circle for a bit he was a friend of a friend and like i do really love and respect him d'angelo just hits different for me yeah d'angelo is a superstar and he also had problems you know what i mean in a way that was like made it all seem heightened he also had cum gutters so you know they kind of yeah he looked amazing yeah i mean body body wise he's the goal as well as as uh singing wise well you know he would even say in his in interviews before uh the period of downfall or a period of struggle that he had you know he's he would say like i just want to get fat so people can listen to my music because his music is brilliant And, you know, lo and behold, he did. He did. No, I mean, yeah, he did what he said. I mean, I'm reading the Evan Dando memoir right now, and he has a similar problem where it's like all they wanted me to do was be like a pinup, and it felt like it was a trap, you know, which is a – look, there's worse traps to be caught in for my money, but I understand everybody's struggle is different. It is. Questlove is like, that sounds good to me. Can I try that for a minute? Well, it's funny that you say Questlove. Questlove was the co-pilot for D'Angelo in all of it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually think... I don't know. I do know Amir Kleslav a bit. I can consider him a friend. He also knows everybody, literally. He's one of the most connected and busy people. He'd be saying yes. I would say he's the most connected and busy person I've ever met in my life. We just met. Give it some time. The little bit of my own experience with... Being known for the shape and condition of your body, which you're not responsible for. It's like, hey, you're responsible for it a little bit. You could be eating Domino's three meals a day. That part's true. You know, you're right. You're right. But I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Something that you that you don't actually have anything to do with. And therefore, I do think it can be an incredibly I think it can develop this profound kind of secret insecurity.

Personally, that's my experience with it. Like you're saying, I take my shirt off and everybody loves it, but what about the inside? Yeah, I mean, for me, it's never been the shirt off. It's been more the face, but yeah. You're like, bro, you're looking at it. Shirt off, it's fine. Potato, potato, same feeling, same effect. No one was paying me extra to take the shirt off. That's kind of part of the deal. I've never been that guy. That's so funny. That's really, really funny. We're more of a, oh, not as bad as I thought I was going to be. Yeah, exactly. Okay, well now I'm glad I know what waters you're swimming in musically so I can add... a song at the end of the set. We do a different song for the outro of every episode, so I'll swim in those Erykah Badu kind of J. Dilla. It'll be a J. Dilla deep cut for you, Penn. Don't worry. Nice. Your little donut's ass. Thank you for joining us, Penn. The book is out now, or is it out soon? I mean, probably by the time this comes out. This comes out tomorrow. We work fast. Oh, all right. So it's out October 14th. Okay, soon. October 14th. Week from today. And one thing I will say, you know, just... shameless shill uh the audiobook the audiobook is a special thing because it's all three of us doing our thing and and um you know if you like this voice you can get more of it yeah i was i was actually gonna because i was listening to your to the the most recent episode of your podcast and at the very end there's like a little five minute teaser where you're reading an excerpt yeah there's a little clip and having you read it as somebody who has you know decades of oration and you know hits diff the character of you is a real thing and the way that you narrate and read things you know you could read me my fucking tax return and people are still gonna listen to that shit you know what i mean that's a power and i like i like that you are also narrating your own inner thoughts as well and you know commenting on yourself yeah in a meta way yeah well you know what i realized for a few of the essays i felt like i was doing a one-man show When I was doing the audiobook itself, I actually had to find myself, first of all, I was like, oh my God, the way that I write is ridiculous because it's just sometimes so layered. And so, you know, that's kind of what the game of...

of a celebrity written book is you have to play with it a bit it's like this self-referential thing so i'm playing with that and that humor and that kind of chaotic irreverence how much we we throw all the pen at it and then we'll cut back to where it's good because there's such a thing as too many parentheses yeah there's something that happens when i hang out with with people that are i guess quote unquote famous and the good ones are very aware of it and let you know that they know that you're aware of it there's no pretense yeah there's no like i'm not i'm not going to pretend like you don't know right what happens to me because it's in the news and i think that is that is the best quality that one can possess if they become successful in that way for me because it's like a level of respect you're giving your friend totally no i yeah i agree with that and so you know me writing my own essays here in this book and then narrating them it's like um i really did find i was like okay i've done something here where i need it requires almost a level of performance that is just a degree beyond an audiobook And it felt good. It's like, oh, this is something that I can really put out into the world and feel good about. Yeah, it would have been funny if you got somebody else to do it, but probably not as good for sales. You know what I mean? Like Richard E. Grant was unavailable, but you had to step in. I think a degree beyond audiobook is a perfect way to put it because most people are like, I'm going to read an audiobook. into a microphone for probably the first time in my life it's going to be a little bit of a struggle it's not what i do yeah and you're like bro i've been doing this since before i hit puberty i'm gonna i'm not gonna like be a dick about it and like be a showboat about it but i'm gonna you know i'm gonna let you know that this is bring the noise what i do kind of what i do this is kind of kind of what i do and as that's the way it should be we all need to in the podcast space we all need to fight

for our own unique attributes to keep us apart from one another. You know what we don't need? It's another podcast. Oh, wow. What a great notion, Don. We'll quit ours if you quit yours, Penn. We made a blood pact. We made a blood pact. You're like, actually. Thanks, Penn. We appreciate it. Well, thank you, Penn. We appreciate you taking the time. And congrats on all the success with the book, as well as your new twins. Good luck. I appreciate it. All right, peace. Take care. Thank you.