872. - W. David Marx

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? It's Chris Black. I am coming to you from an already dark London. The sun is down and it is depressing as fuck. Jason, how are you? It's a little dark and depressing over here, but more so on the sunrise instead of the sunset scale of things. I've heard there's some rain. People are posting. I love that when the weather is bad in L.A., it becomes sort of a national news story, at least in my circles. It's rare. It's because it's rare. It's true. Can't argue with that. You can't argue with that. Yeah, it would be like if they were like, man, there's no rats in New York City. You know, that would be major news. Of course, that'll never happen. Well, let's see what Maybach Zoe can do. I mean, he's trying to get, you know, you want to give out free groceries. What about the rats? That's a real problem. Yeah, and because Eric Adams, he was doing a lot with the rats, and it's all that, those years of work are going to be all undone, right? Exactly. When the new administration takes office, the rats are fucking back. Yeah, I mean, I don't live in New York, obviously, so I don't really have any skin in the game, although I have been spending a lot of time over there. Shout out to my Nine Orchard family. Whenever I hear anyone criticizing, like, you know, and Mom Donnie's probably not going to do anything about XYZ, you think back and you're like, who was the last New York person in political power who any of those things? It's not like something is stopping now that he is in office. You know, everything has already been at a complete zero in every city in the world.

So it's not like we're taking any steps back, you know? No, I would agree with that. A lateral move at the very least. I would agree with that. I've already forgot about Zoe, honestly. I feel like, obviously when he takes power, it'll be a bigger deal, but I feel like it was nonstop, and then, you know, then we got this excerpt from Olivia Nuzzi's book, you know, and things just took a turn. Now we don't care about him anymore until he takes office and gets rid of the rats. And I think he's okay with that. He wants to get his... You know, put his hair in a bun, put on some gangster wrap, get a bidiani, and get after it. Get to work. When these guys are like, I'm just ready to put my head down. I'm like, yeah, you've been bullshit. You've been smiling so hard that you have a headache for six months. Now it's time to get to work. Thank God. Thank God it's time to put my head down and just get to work. I've got to grind. I feel like he's going to get more work done than when... Gavin Nuisance finally takes presidential office. He's making no bones about his bullshittery. That's because he's listening to the AI 50 Cent song and getting fucking amped up on Adderall like a good millennial. He's doing soil toxicity reports over in Palisades with Spencer Pratt. He's going after it. I love Prats. I love his pivot to strange political voice because his house burned down. I think it took something. Yeah, you pushed me to the edge. I'm about to break. If I had a platform, if me and my wife were famous on the internet and the whole entire city infrastructure let me down, my house and home and every possession I had burned down. I'm going fucking AWOL on TikTok, too. That's all you can do. I haven't caught him. I've only read the stories about it. I haven't caught any of the videos, but I should. I know he's an amazing presenter, so I need to kind of... Gifted orator. When he's selling Heidi's music, I don't plug in quite as much, but when he's going right wing, it's more interesting overall as a person who likes to be entertained. But he's not. I don't think he's right wing. I think he's just mad as heck. He's, I mean, sure.

But, I mean, it's a little bit. I think it's a little bit. Those are the people that will embrace him. You're saying he's purple? I'm saying that that's the kind of people who will embrace someone like him so he gets lumped in with that, whatever his beliefs are or not, is what I'm trying to say. Like when I inevitably go to jail and I have to hang out at the Aryan Nation just to protect my safety. Do you want to live or not? Do you want to live or not? You've got to make it out of here. You want the silver or you want the lead, TJ? I saw that 50 was trolling Diddy, saying he must be having a good time in prison surrounded by all these guys. which is pretty from a photo out in the yard. Well, you know, when there's a, when there's a grainy picture of a guy out in the yard, you know, you can barely make out who it is, but it still gets published. I love the thirst for, for puffy Intel that we're at. He fucking like he's in jail and he's standing next to a guy. He can't get a lineup and he's got a beard. Like, what do you think? Like, what do you, of course he's in jail for God's sakes. Like, what do you expect? Yeah. The fuck do you think? I mean, you know, he's going to, He immediately looks like Frederick Douglass, and he's getting his little man bussy busted out left, right, and center. He said, we ain't going nowhere. You're going to get this dick, old Freddy. Ooh, goddammit. Oh, man. You ever get some head from a forefather? Ooh. Take them wooden teeth out. Oh, you thought you'd had something. You thought you'd experience this. Do not sleep on forefather, Thrusy. Until the wood teeth are on the bedside table, you don't know what you're getting into. That founding father is a munch. Okay. So you are in crispy London town. I'm in London. Is it going well? Have you linked up with a friend of the show, Plum Sykes, yet? Yeah, we went this morning to Fortnum & Mason for our... story that we're doing it was pretty fun I'd never we were in there before it opened and being in places that like big and normally bustling when it when it's not open is always a funny experience um but I was able to I was able to purchase some items um at at the store I have some I got brought Alex back some chocolates I got some you know cacao covered almonds yeah I resisted any of the big ticket items the sort of toddler sized hollow Santa

made of chocolate for $135. I was able to leave that on the shelf, but great gift if you're in the market for a giant chocolate Santa. Holo, of course, but still. It's not that giant. You said it's toddler-sized. That's pretty big for a Santa. It's pretty big for food. Yeah, pretty big for food. It's not big for Santa. Santa's usually a full-grown man. That's true. Santa's a big-ass dude. But yeah, I went to Rita's last night with... shod and ed and uh gabe and missy came i had a delicious i had a big discussion with gabe about this chris black bite of the night let's get into it barbecued monkfish it was delicious but i was like gabe i was like where's the rest of my i'm american god damn it like this portion size is i mean you know It's for ladies. Was it a petite monkfish? It was a petite monkfish. And he said, you don't know the price of monkfish, do you, chief? And I said, actually, I don't. And he said, well, let me educate you, young brother. And he let me know that monkfish, in the UK at least, is peaking. And I immediately walked it back. I don't want to disrespect the chef and the owner, obviously. And I respect that the fish prices do rise, depending on what's going on in Parliament. You said you want skate wing. Well, I'll give you five pounds of that, and I'll give you a whole fucking Tesco bucket load of that. What do you want? Back the black cab up, bitch. Let's go. I'll get you some skate wing. But then in your capitalist, Chris, American mind, you said, okay, the price of monkfish going up. my size just charge me more charge me charge charge me more it's called market price you know this steak is 170 this steak is 240 because this it's more product that's all it is i agree and i think ed had a pork chop and i think shot and and yeah i think shot had a duck, everybody, basically everybody went for the good stuff. I went for the monkfish, which is delicious, but I needed, I needed a duck or pork chop to really fill me up, you know? Okay. Okay. No, you needed your, your gains, your team, but I will say it is out of character for you, such a less adventurous eater to be tucking into a barbecued monkfish. I feel like a Chris from just even mid COVID just two, three years ago, the idea of eating.

barbecued monkfish seems like it would be at the top of the list of your no-fly zone. Well, if it was covered in barbecue sauce, then yes, I would be adverse. But the simple act of cooking over a flame, I can appreciate that, and the flavors and smokiness that it does bring out in the delicate fish. Do you think there's a small chance, Chris, that this could be a grilled monkfish and not a barbecued monkfish? There is a difference between the two. I wasn't going to say that, but I... I literally think it was... You know what? I need to look this up. I know Gabe is listening to this right now and he's fucking chiseling a hole in his hand with a pencil. He needs to look it up. I literally think it was... I think they made a point of saying it was barbecued. But now I'm like, am I wrong? Because what you're saying obviously makes more sense in that restaurant setting. Well, we all have different variations on the definition. I'm looking at a beautiful barbecued monkfish with Tokyo turnips. She's on the new Ice Life song. I was going to say, Tokyo Turnips, follow her on OnlyFans. So I'm correct. Stop playing with them, Tokyo. With a mole amarillo and a rich yellow mole made with guajillo, chile, meco, and amarillo chiles. Peanuts, masa, oregano, cinnamon, and sesame. So this is... This is a Latinx preparation of barbecued monkfish. So it was smoky. Yeah, it was delicious. I really liked it. It looks like a great little plate. And that monkfish, the mouthfeel, right? Slutty. The key word there is little. and that's my that's my you know what i mean but i i mean whatever i i could have ordered two if i wanted to you know you said we're the rest of this month but yeah everybody else it was me shod liam claire ed and they all got these big boy adult dishes and then i felt like i was i felt like i just had to get more side salad. I would argue that this is maybe the most adult dish on there. That's rare for me. I'm not going kids meal mode, but sometimes I... We were thinking of you. I had a little talk over at your San Vicente bungalows last night. Shout out to Ricky for hooking it up. Patrick Sandberg, how long gone friend, and I had a conversation discussing the LA Renaissance man.

on a rainy monday night but at the san vicente bungalows we all know that that's the day of the week that chris black magically likes to oops and let's just go on a monday oh you guys have free ice cream sundays on monday how that's such a weird coinkydink that we are on that same night that that happened you're saying i get to build my own um can i get some extra heat bar but i was dining with ryland and he said you know when chris comes to town he's got his svv And you guys would have dinner often. And he said, you know, coincidentally, just by the luck of the random, totally random draw, the one night a week where they offer free ice cream sundae platter, build your own wheel, was the time that you guys ended up there. And, you know, we're discussing how that's such an old Chris and how we're proud of you that you don't. Thank you. Sprinkle the Heath Bar Crunch on top of that soft serve. It takes everything I had, everything I have, especially San Vicente Bungalows. The desserts do shine, I have to say. And the ice cream thing is just more fun than anything else. Obviously, I don't like sharing, so there's some issues there. But I'm glad that you had it go. Was it a good turnout, even though it was raining? Yeah, even though it was raining, it was a good turnout. They had some free wine. We had some little pigs in a blanket, little mini grilled cheeses. We had a nice big dinner afterwards with some friends, Yossi Salik, podcaster, friend of the show. Who else was there? Sky was there. Charlie was there for a random other dinner. She popped in for a little bit. Greg K. And there was a guy who's cat-sized creative director. I forgot his name, but he was a fun gay guy. All right. This is starting to sound like. Nikki's. She was all there. It was a fun guy. You're starting to sound like. Whack-a-mole. I love that. That sounds great. It was a power gay whack-a-mole. That sounds... I mean, that's kind of the dream situation for what you're describing. So I'm glad that it... For you, as a pass-around party twunk, this was prime real estate for a little bossy bottom like yourself, wasn't it? Prime real estate. I'm in this...

I'm staying at this hotel called the Zetter that I've never stayed at before in Clerkenwell. Zetter? Z-E-T-T-E-R. And I didn't really look into it that hard. And it's one of my favorite hotel rooms I've ever stayed in, maybe. I'm sitting at the dining table. That is, it's just, it really feels like you're in somebody's house, which I think is what every hotel tries to pull off, but rarely does. And I'm just, I'm happier than a pig and shit. The floors are heated. You got the bathtub. You got everything. It's got everything I need. You know, it doesn't have a restaurant, so there's no food smells. It's perfect. Ooh, huge for you. How's the mini bar? Anything in there? Yeah, if you want to have a gin martini, there's stuff in there. But, you know, if you want some crisps or some peanuts, they got you, but no extra shit. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's not. It's not Chateau Marmont with the milk duds, I'll tell you that. No milk duds over here. They're probably calling something different. When I was at the Nine Orchard, and we have our guest here, W. David Marks, but he's on mute because he's a good guy because we're doing, he knows what he's doing. He's a pro. He's a motherfucking pro, but I was talking to Larry. McGuire. Proprietor of the property. And I was telling the story about when we had the hug, and I thought he was going in for the hug, but it was actually just him moving around. And I hugged him, and he did the, well, I guess we're hugging now kind of thing. And he sent me a text saying, like, don't worry, bro. I like the hug. It was cool. But normally when I stay at that hotel, I stay on the seventh floor, and they have a terrace with, like, an outdoor area, which is my smoke injection. And this time. I was on 12U, and I was looking. I was like, man, this room's nice. And you were in it. We podcasted it. Great room. I went on the website to look. That is the penthouse. That is the biggest, most grand room in the whole hotel with my dumb ass in there. But he was saying on the seventh floor outdoor terrace, he's like, what do you think about putting a little? cold plunge sauna about on that balcony and i was like bro you are bringing a little touch of austin to dime square in the perfect amount they fucking need it they like we're not going to do any we're not i'm not going to put in a home state taco place i'm not going to do a queso fundito right wing pop-up stand

I'm just going to keep everything as it is, but add a cold plunge in a sauna. That's exactly all I need. No, that's a really good idea. All right, David's here. Let's talk to him. His new book. I mean, he's authored several books, but his new one, Blank Space, A Culture History of the 21st Century, is out today, actually. I think we're talking to him on pub day. And he's, as a resident of the motherland, Japan, but he's in America just to talk to us, which is really nice for him to take the flight. even though we're doing this remotely. Just send us the invoice on that one. Yeah, no problem. Let's give David a call. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer. And quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down.

The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcast. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more.

So head to squarespace.com slash how long for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code how long to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. I had to bring a podcast mic to the United States for this. Okay, look, to be fair, I don't want to, I don't want to, look, Jason takes this seriously, but I would say that might be overkill, but we appreciate it. You got to sound good. But you own this. You've used this before. You have a windscreen, for Christ's sake. Yeah, I have a windscreen. I had to, like, jerry-rig it to work. But it's like a music windscreen. Well, it's because you care and you do a lot of... interviews about all of your books that you write so you want to sound good what if that mic was what 100 bucks 200 bucks it's not like hold on hold on hold on he said for singing are you doing a david burman cover album i don't know about or what's going on i i i once made music back in the day hold on one goddamn second i didn't know that what what kind of oh is this skateboard w we have on the call today But also, they don't make podcast windscreens just yet. I think it's just like first singing. That's true. That's true. Yeah. What is your weapon of choice if you go into the Guitar Center? I mean, look, in high school, I played in bands. I did Alternapop. Okay. And then I got really sick of that and started getting back into piano, and I did weird digital plus. 60s songwriter kind of stuff in the early 2000s. It went nowhere. It was like music about music and it had no audience. Sure, sure, sure. I know the style that you speak of. I know the style that you speak of. You said Alternapop? Yeah. What is your brand of Alternapop? Just to give us some bearings. It was just like all that mid-90s. We loved, I don't know, REM and Pavement. Weetus? Don't say Weetus. No, Weetus, that's much later. But that's the end point of Alternapop. That's where they start adding DJ Scratches and the whole thing went to hell. Slow down, Matt. Slow down. Don't come from DJ Homicide. I forgot about DJ Scratches. Those are coming back now that TripHop is returning.

to the zeitgeist i'm hearing a an errant scratch from time to time and i gotta tell you i don't like it either scratching really was in and it was out you can you can date some a lot of music by how much how much scratching there was jason have you ever have you ever been asked to come down to the studio and lay some scratches on anything uh it's very possible there was a time when i was flirting with the idea of being in a Portishead-style band. Hold on, hold on. We talk to each other a lot, and this is the first time I've heard of this. I was still living in Orange County. It was early days. But the problem was, it was like me and this stoner dude would play bass, and then there was these two Asian dudes, and they were better at scratching than I was just because of the genetic. cards that were dealt to me so i was on i was playing kind of like godspeed you black emperor stoner guitar lines with like a lot of reverb and they were getting there so they were turntable lists is what you're saying they were turntable the amount of times jason's eating sushi with turntable lists i can't i can't count on i can't count on two hands and two so i think to answer your question because i'm so surrounded by so many turntable lists I never got the call to come into the studio with, you know, Shifty Shellshock. May he rest in peace. R.I.P. to the goat, Shifty. R.I.P. All right. So, David, you're in New York. And is this for are you just there? Are you here for launch week? Are you do you have other plans that you're trying to? He was sick of podcasting at 4 a.m. So he popped over here for a week. We've tried to do this for like two years. And you're like, you know what, bro? Let's do this shit when I'm in New York. Like, it's all good. We'll just wait till I'm over there. So it's easier. It's working. I'm honored that you waited so long to have me. But no, I'm in New York to launch. It's my first time and I waited. I'm here. I'm here to launch the book. It's just you got to be on the ground. It's kind of a rule of life. And so I wasn't here for the last one, and so I had to be here. And I'm going to Boston tomorrow, but that's basically it. Just New York and Boston. Sorry about that. Well, I'm sure you have a reason to go to Boston. Are you visiting your alma mater in Cambridge? In Cambridge, yeah. Got it. The Cambridge something bookstore. But yeah.

And my host for that event is my former college roommate. So, yeah, that one's more like an alumni kind of feeling. But, yeah, New York. New York's where homecoming. Do you think these cheap motherfuckers are going to pony up and buy a few books? Or do you think, you know, what do you think? Do you think Boston is going to show up and show out to support one of their own? Not like not like New York. Sure. Well, to be fair, the subjects that you talk about are more New York than Boston, I would say. They're more New York than anywhere. We got fucking culture there, man. We got culture. I did 300 pages on Dunkin' and they didn't even respond to that. There is a Dunkin' Donuts reference. There is a Dunkin' Donuts reference that brings New York and Boston together, which is the Dunkin' Donuts commercial with Ben Affleck and I Spice. That's a real healing moment for the East Coast. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Can I ask you a question real quick? Do you think they were ever in the same room? No, they were absolutely not. Okay. Okay. That's the best part about the commercial is that they weren't. Yeah. You think Aflac hit? You think Aflac hit though? Just for the story? I mean, you don't have to answer that, of course, but what do you think about the new I Spice song slash video, Big Guy, from the forthcoming SpongeBob movie soundtrack? Is this Mad Libs or this is a real thing? This is real. This is real. It's going viral on my corner of Twitter where she wrote a song called Big Guy and the lyrics just say, Big Guy, good pants or something like that. It's like five words, and it's repeated like a mantra. It makes no sense, but it's obviously Stop Playing With Them Riot is on the beat, and it's like a real kind of be more, like a fun be more kind of beat. And it's like an earworm where you're like, this is music for like one-year-olds, but I can't stop listening to it kind of thing. Is this going to be the drill crossover moment, the SpongeBob? Feel old yet, Chief? I mean, I think SpongeBob is an urban film. technically based on based on the the way based on pajama pants only well i mean spongebob feels i mean i feel like there's a spongebob supreme collaboration i'm sure like i feel like all that stuff has happened and it's somehow spongebob square pants is an urban film no but like spongebob square pants like nascar jacket like you can see dro in that you can you know that's not crazy that's like real this is stuff that definitely exists no i mean i guess they they they did email ice spice and not michelle branch

to do this. That's a great point. When you put it that way, what is your relationship to Boston as a short-term resident? I assume you only did four years because you're such a smart guy. You didn't have to do five, did you? No. Look, I'm from Pensacola, Florida, and so Boston felt like moving to the big city. I mean, compared to Pensacola, I didn't realize you were a Florida guy. That's great. Yeah, I was born in Oklahoma, so I was really even moving on up to get to Pensacola, and I was in Oxford, Mississippi before that. But, yeah, I mean, so they had a subway, right? I mean, like it had a metro train you could be on. The T, as it's referred. So it's like I kind of, you know, I progressed. It's like I went to Boston, then I was in New York, and I was in Tokyo. So it was kind of moving up, like, you know, yellow belt, green belt or whatever. Tokyo, you think you're better than me? What era of Boston? Because there was a legendary Boston nightlife era. sort of anchored like sort of electro clash you know what i mean like gibby from makeout club had a party there jason you know what i'm talking about i know a little bit about it but it seems like you might know a little bit more than i did i can't remember i can't remember what the part making time was philadelphia right yeah no there was something in boston i totally forgot little little internet may have been involved that i think it was before his time oh wow yeah yeah okay or their their time i don't want to offend this is all after me i i would go to shows in the middle east okay i'd go see the promise ring at the middle east and that's that's like i mean look that's that's much better than what i'm talking about you know okay let's let's talk about how cute you were dressing at the promise ring show in college you know his ass had a little because right now you're already dressing like a little cutie so i can only imagine when you're fucking 19 so you know you had a little baby t with a it was a button on the t-shirt you know button on the t-shirt that's obviously there was a strap across the chest but was it diagonal straight horizontal what was going on with your strap situation uh i was probably wearing like japanese street wear

But it was definitely a tighter fit. You had the Bapestas on at Promise Ring? There were no Bapestas yet. This was pre-Bapestas. So this was just some... You idiot. It was pre-Bapestas. Come on, Jason. Look, I'm sorry. Or wearing like a Buffalo Daughter t-shirt. Like I was just into obscure Japanese bands. So you're like, I'm the only... They don't know I'm the only guy at the Promise Ring show wearing capital denim with the VisVim. on and they're like we all see your gay ass with the capital denim yeah and like adidas superstars or whatever yeah but like that was that was how we lived then So you were mixing some of the classic emo staples with your own maybe newly discovered Japanese streetwear obsession. That's right. It wasn't that cool. This sounds much more romantic than it was. Don't worry, David. We were all there in our own ways, and we know it wasn't that cool. Yeah, but looking back, very cool, very ahead of the time. But at the time, they were not able to really understand your level of dressing just yet. Which, you know, blessing and the curse of being. whatever it is that you are but i probably wore the same pair of jeans every single day for about two years in college like that yeah so did you freeze them put them in the freezer yeah what kind of salvage are we rocking with though that was so at the time in new york because like there's nothing in boston so i'd go to new york to shop and i had a pair of 45 rpm like japanese salvage and uh they weren't that expensive but yeah i just that was like basically i'd wear those in a t-shirt every single day and uh i had a camo bape record bag that was bright blue that looked like hell yeah it looked like flowers to every other person because nobody knows what it is and they're like why does he wear that flower tote bag everywhere Damn, you had the – I forgot about record bags, which is simply a messenger bag that is shaped to hold 12-inch vinyl. Yeah, exactly. But those were really – You need it. I'm sure Jason had a few statement DJ bags as well. You're not the only one. They weren't – no, no. I was more utilitarian with my vinyl transpo. Are you saying you put it in – I didn't go Paul Frank with it. You put it in a Gelson's bag? Yeah. No, no, no. There was –

You have to go and get them at Guitar Center and not at Barney's. Oh, I see, I see, I see, I see, I see. It wasn't cute. That makes more sense. I like this. I think this look, it doesn't sound like you've strayed that far from it, Dave. Honestly, I mean, I think, because I've been thinking about this a lot lately. It's like, wait. You wear a lot of camo baby tees nowadays. Yeah, it seems like pretty in line with what's going on now. I'm going to say that David has more camo in his storage spaces than we do. That's my guess. It's actually not true. I don't wear camo. I feel like it's stolen valor a little bit to wear camo. It's the same with Carhartt. It is. You know, I never worked a road crew. I can't rock Carhartt. You ain't digging ditches. Well, let me introduce you to the idea of de-badging, something that I'm passionate about no matter what the brand is. We're taking that tag off. If it's visible, we're taking it off. The tailor's taking it off. I have one pair of Carhartt pants that I love because they're brown, and I feel like it's a strange color. But I agree with you. When I wear them, I'm like, I sit in front of a computer all day. I'm a total pussy. This doesn't feel right. Okay, so you mentioned. Wearing the same pair of denim every day, not washing them for multiple years, possibly. In our era, Chris and I, a lot of our friends are doing the same. A lot of them, there's a two-parter. A lot of them, no underwear. I'm assuming you were going underwear. Yeah. And a lot of them, you would have to do things, put them in the freezer, spray them with weird things. But also, you don't seem like a particularly pissy pants kind of person. So I think you kept things on the up and up, right? You a pissy guy, W. David? There was no special knowledge at that time. We didn't know about the freezer. There was no internet forum at that point. That's good, because I still stand by it. You've heard about the pissy salvage rumor, I'm sure. David, you haven't. Pissy salvage opening for fake mink right now on a couple select dates. I love pissy. But the idea is that the reason crotches blow out on men's jeans is because no matter what you do, there's a little bit of drip that touches that part of the denim and then it eventually blows out. And although that sounds ridiculous. It's an acidic reaction. It's just simple science. Yeah, but upon further review, it's not that crazy of an idea. They really do blow out.

It's true that they blow out. No, I think it's really crazy because I just feel like that really is the first part of jeans. Unless you fall off your bike and skin your knee, that's the first part of the jeans that give. Yeah, I had to get them taken in because I blew the crotch. That's just the way it worked. It would be perfect except that the crotch would blow and you'd have to go in and get them hemmed up. I have the best pair of APC jeans from like 2002. I can't believe ever fit on my body. You know what I mean? And I've given them, given them to my wife, but they are just the amount of times I had the crotch repaired. It's it. it cost me more than the jeans you tell alex is wearing your little fat ass pants from 20 2002 and they're working i mean she's got to wear a belt but like i mean i mean that's a testament to how possibly snatched you were at this time i wasn't i don't think i was snatched i think my pants were too tight i think it's too those it was probably a little sponge bobby things are looking real tight down below and then up top is where it all goes okay exactly have you done the butler before where you take in your old pairs and you get a discount uh at apc you mean Yeah. So he has a thing. Yeah. Something doesn't sit right with me with that. I just feel like I don't. I'm happy to buy something that's been washed, you know what I mean, or whatever, but I don't know if I want to buy somebody else's destroyed jeans unless they're actually vintage, like 501s. Unless they're hot. Well, you don't have to buy them, but you can sell them, or you can give them to a PC and get a discount. But it feels like an incredible honor. But I'm part of the problem. But it feels like an honor when you bring them in, and they're like, they actually accept it. It's like, yeah, thank you. I've done my service. Oh, because they have, okay, okay. Because there's some that are like, no, this, your fate sucks. Where it's like. You want to go into a PC and then you dump the little Whole Foods bag out on the counter and somebody's like, hey, get Steve over here. He needs to take a look at this. You want all the staff to stop holding clothes and come and admire your wash. They're like, shit, we can actually take this one.

Exactly. So it feels like a badge of honor that I have butlered two pairs. A true custodian of the space. Someone out there has my old pairs. What's the butler? Yeah, I want to know what guy got those, because you're as tall as Jason, or close, I think. Yeah, and maybe at that point, the fit was like you had a really, they were like Tom Brown crop. So maybe they worked for other people. Did you see that story Jake Gallagher wrote for the New York Times about the guy who wears the crazy selvage jeans every day that are like... Extremely long. They're like 12 feet long. They're really long. They're 12 feet long, so he wears them every day. They're naked and famous, I think. So he wears them every day to get the crazy honey, to get the stack. And he looks, he has to like lay down. It's like putting, it's crazy. The whole thing is so crazy. I told Jacob, these jeans look pretty normal to me. I also like what you said, naked and famous. I ain't putting any respect on Naked and Famous's name. I'm sorry. That's just me. We do plan to talk about your great new book, Blank Space, but it would be foolish even on pub day with so much going on. The literary girls are fighting. There's a lot of stuff happening in your media space with... the the olivia newsy the dasha hollywood reporter going on it feels like we're we're in like a a well actually quote unquote type of journalism where the story comes out and then two days later somebody's like this is actually the story and it's it feels like there's like narrative like soap opera wwe infighting going on to maybe get clicks i don't know what do you think i mean you guys love this right Oh, do I love it? Are you kidding me? I'm vibrating over here. I'm a little separated from the space as I only read when we have guests on the podcast who write books. But Chris is more in the media space. I think the nuzzy stuff is sort of whatever. Like, I think I think she's like, I don't know. That doesn't interest me that much. I think she's going to be fine and the book's probably good. And I love the drama of her calling him the politician only and not referring to him by name. We all know by name. But the fact that her ex-boyfriend waited 10 years to post a sub stack today about her having another thing with another politician is some of the nastiest work I've ever seen. And I'm deeply impressed. And I'm actually writing about this right now. This is the best use of sub stack I've ever seen. This is the actual reason for a paywall. And also millions of people know what.

telos is today who did not know yesterday i'm assuming maybe i didn't know what it was i don't man i'm glad i read the internet before doing this podcast but it'd be weird if you didn't is this the part of the problem you know in what sense is like is if culture is all gossip at every level like there's indie gossip now in a way that there used to only be celebrity gossip. Now it's like, this is like, there's writer gossip and dime square gossip. There's like gossip all the way up and down the chain. But wasn't there always, I guess there was always, yeah. There was always industry, but I think this is the problem is we all have access to it, whether we're in the industry or not. Yeah. So like, how do you, what do you think about Dumois in the sense that that site is gossip, but it's also surveillance state. It's like, let's crowdsource rumors about everyone with. photographs that the celebrity didn't even know was taken and will turn that into an entire content business. It's like Uber for gossip. Put you guys to work. You guys all have a camera on your phone. We talk about this all the time. And I'm sorry to BJ. I know he's listening because he's been a victim. But I think that the issue is, well, it's Gawker Stalker, which I know you remember. Gawker Stalker is the original version of this, but there's no pictures. So it's sort of like I saw mary kate olsen at whatever cafe jaton is not it's not like dangerous because it's you know what i mean this is getting to the point where like you're doxing someone yeah i think it is a surveillance state and i don't really i i follow them but i muted the story because it's too much because i do love a paparazzi photo what can i say i'm a i'm a sucker i love a blurry photo from across the street but i think it is like i don't know because i think it's now I mean, it's happened to civilians, right? It's like happens when somebody that DoorDash driver found the guy asleep and videoed him and posted it. And she went to jail because it was like, you can't do you can't just do that. It's like when somebody films someone in the locker room of the gym and thinks they're going to get a lot of likes on it. It's like.

I don't think we're moving further away from that. I think we're moving more to it, I would say. What I was asking originally, do you think that we're in a time where we're all fighting for clicks? All these media industries are failing. Do you think it's possible that they're trying to create these narratives, like how they do with politics or whatever, where we're using our Substack platform or our New Yorker pieces or our Vanity Fair essays? to sort of have these inter-writer relationships with other people in an effort to maybe get more clicks, or is this just the way the cards have laid? Everything's moving to that direction, but at some point, is it just too much and everybody goes a different way? I don't know. I mean, again, it's like you're going to click on it, and the problem is that... love clicks are the same as hate clicks and there's no way to tell the difference and so the the entire system the data that you get about like what should we cover there's no way to know it's like people actually like this or they just want to know or they feel like they have to know and the degree to which like our cultural capital now is not like oh i know this thing and you don't know it or i'm into this restaurant uh or i'm into this brand or whatever but it's also like you have to know all the the low down stuff too in order to have a conversation with anybody so the degree to which like the our literacy our media literacy is based off following the most salacious parts of media culture i think that's also pretty baked in i don't know it's only getting more that direction i think there'll be a rebellion at some point you know small but mighty the same way there's the group of kids now that are like we don't use our phones you know that's that's like whack i think everything has a reaction eventually. But I think you're right. I think when there's money to be made off of it, it's a little harder to disengage. Yeah, when it's the only way to make money. What do you think about, as somebody who's prolific with the pen and written multiple books and many other things, how do you feel about Olivia Nuzi writing or claiming to write?

most of her book on her phone while hiking in malibu you believe that are you envious of that do you wish you had that ability are you doing voice to text when you're on your kyoto walks uh i mean a lot so many books are basically 140 pages of triple spaced like they're an extended essay hey david do not come for me i'm not even done yet bro do not do that i'm trying to go quad i want to be the first guy to do quad space 110 000 words chopped it down to 85 000 for this book right Chris, where are you at right now? You remember that? Not there. Not in that. I don't know. He's at the top of Mount Kilimanjaro. I'm at the bottom. He's looking for parking. We'll talk later. I'll give you some tips. But look, if you're doing a 40,000-word book, yeah, you can transcribe that. I mean, if it's just – I do a very different thing. I do very overly dense, overly researched bits, and I can't just – bang it out by voice. But she can, and if you go and look at the books that actually sell, they're all memoirs of famous people. One's not better than the other. She's doing it right. I don't know. Just different styles. I do a much less successful thing, so who am I to judge? So you're saying you do this exhaustive research, so then you have material to work from. You do all the research first and then break it down, or do you do an outline first and then plug the research in? Yeah, it's it's like a combination of the two. But the most important thing is like never start with a blank sheet of paper like every day. I know the thing that I should have done yesterday. So I'm making up for it. So like the process is, is never sitting down and be like, I gotta get inspiration. It's like, Oh yeah, I gotta, I gotta cover chocolate rain. Cause I forgot to get to that paragraph. So, uh, so basically, yeah, I mean, I, I always have an outline and then the outline gets expanded out. But like, as I read and as I do research, everything slots into the outline and then it gets sucked in. It's, it's like a very systematic thing. It's like, I can, it's akin to building.

building. It's like an architectural project. It's not poetry. Did you discover this? Did it become your process or is this how you book one? This is how I do this. It became my process just because I can move really fast if I did it that way. I think the speed is important to me and it's got to be... If you've got structure and you've got the notes, you can bang it out. You were mentioning that the sort of... self-transcribed memoirs are the ones that sell the most and everyone clamps onto. And obviously that's true. And I think that those kind of can oftentimes burn bright and then sort of have a shorter tail. Whereas what you're doing, I feel like it's almost the inverse where if you're writing about history that happened a year ago. my ass already already knows all of that stuff yeah but then what you're doing i feel like you know as as the decades click on you could experience even a gain in sales and revenue as this information becomes more valuable and scarce it's a long-term strategy i'm thinking about the children and there are people who are born right now who don't know who the hawk to a girl is and at some time they're going to want to know what was that about i hate that i hate that imagine not living through the hawk to a era imagine the void in your heart I mean, that's crazy to think about. Without her, without Toctua, Helen Gallen would have never even thought about it. But how do you feel that she traded millions of dollars? away uh she she took the million dollar two million dollar rug pull or whatever and then had to give away the podcast that the podcast got sacrificed so that she could go into hiding i mean she she can't do talk to it and rug pull when you rug pull you you're making a deal with the devil that you are no longer a podcaster we can't come back from that let me say this guys i don't think talk talk to a handled it maybe the right way if that's a surprise to you guys maybe the fame name is hailey

Maybe Hayley Welch was just flabbergasted by the fame and attention and she was unable to cope and maybe acted accordingly. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking... Something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, it... How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code how long taskers book up faster, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code how long with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, La Grange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina,

Virginia Beach, Virginia Wheeling, West Virginia and Columbus, Ohio plus there are even more dates some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here so please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates we'll see you on the road this summer study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time college students get the best of both worlds Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. Look, if your job was working in a spring factory in a town in Tennessee that no one's ever heard of, then maybe take in the rug pull. was the right option who are we to judge i think there's a decent chance that maybe she was taken advantage of by other people perhaps i don't know the crypto you think the crypto people aren't all above board is what you're saying i just don't know if she was a master of blockchain before all of this fame somebody i was talking to they were like i don't even know what blockchain oh oh tina brown was like i don't know what blockchain means and i was like this is so we need more of this yeah we need more of this old bitches winning bro The exploration of crypto and sort of all of that digital art and how everyone in our lives was telling us that if we didn't get into that, we were the dumbest guy alive and I was going to be poor for the rest of my life. It seems like we just glazed over that. Like it just came and went. And there was no real like, not like persecution, but kind of like, yo, this was all fake. Like this was all kind of fake. My Ethereum's only gone up, bro. You can't get it off your phone, though. You have all this theory. If you ever want to use any of it, it's impossible. You have to have a PhD in five different apps. But there was a time a couple of years ago when, as you said, it felt like, okay, everyone else in the entire world is going to be a billionaire because of this stuff, and I'm just going to not be into it. But then I realized basically the people with the worst instincts in the entire world are going to get super rich to the degree that money will be really uncool because it will be like, oh, you have money. Oh, you're one of those NFT guys. Whatever you got to tell yourself, bro.

I wish I could say that, but if I had a penthouse in Miami and three supercars, I'd probably be better off right now. If I had a pet lion, I wouldn't be talking to you fucking guys. I think that the bored ape of it all is maybe the worst. I think that was visually so offensive, whereas the other stuff, I can barely comprehend it, so it didn't offend me as much. It was just something that I kept having to hear about from people who I feel are not as smart as I am. telling me that I'm an idiot for not doing it. That is my relationship to that. Did you sell your Bored Ape? Yeah, I unloaded all of my apes, and I didn't do super well on them, but here we are. He didn't lose money. Jason, have you ever DJed? Did you ever DJ a Bored Ape Yacht Club party? No. thank god i would have been i mean i guess if i would have been paid in bitcoin i probably would have fucking done he's doing he's doing mar-a-lago next week but he won't do the he won't do that stuff bro that's too far yeah i don't i'm not in the board ape him and keith he's doing scratches on keith urban's set so it's going to be a pretty sick mashup at the at mar-a-lago But we did do an NFT, but, you know. I think we should all be proud of ourselves in riding on a high horse that we were able to resist that. Because I think that, like. Hooray for us. Yeah. It really felt like. But I also know multiple people who have bought homes because they have Bitcoin. See, I hear. I don't. Or maybe I do. But I don't know someone who did that as successfully as it looks on Instagram. let me let me say that i think i think it happened sort of before the the that nft era happened like the homie that had it in 2013 and just like i i got like two grand into it and then 10 years later i have 900 000 type shit and i just quietly bought a house in highland park kind of thing but all the crypto stuff was alternative culture right it's like that's what alternative culture is in 2025 is financial speculation no i hate i i hate to agree with you but you're you make a point i mean i think it's just like alternative culture to me means alternative to what to being poor no i think that it gives i think it gives these people that are not like to me to me and to us alternative culture probably relates to the arts

Most, most often. Yeah. But I think this offered an opportunity for people who don't even know what alternative culture means to do something that felt back like a pushback on societal norms. I'm looking for an alternative to going to college and getting a job. Yeah. Like, but I'm like a jock or whatever, or like, I just like to party and like, I don't care about, you know, I'm not. Culture doesn't mean going to the museum to me. It means something different to everyone, I guess. What was your favorite museum in Conyers? What's like the top three? Top three museums in Conyers, there was a Wendy's, there was a Shoney's, and there were two McDonald's on both sides of town. So it was pretty sick in that way. So my brother lives in Athens. I think I told you this already, but I asked him, what's Conyers? Tell me about Conyers. He's like, oh, it's really famous because it had a big syphilis outbreak. That's true. Well, famously, it was a PBS special, but just to clear this up, it was at the other high school. Okay. It was at the other. It wasn't at Heritage High School. It was at Salem High School. But it is like a – you can get it on DVD, I believe. It was like a really produced – You can get syphilis on DVD? Oh, the documentary. Got it. The documentary. But Conyers is not a place that I'm looking to go back to, even for a visit. It's no Snellville. Why does your brother live in Athens? He's a doctor at the hospital there. I don't know. I mean, if you live in the South, Athens is one of the top cool places you could be, you know? Yes, but it's too far from the airport. is the only thing i would say it's like a if you want to go to the airport it's yeah it's a two-hour thing which i think a lot of musicians live there fine for most people not for you chris a known traveler but it's such a it's such a like a i mean less so now but a lot of like professional musicians live there and i'm like that just seems like a bad idea considering how often you're having to leave you know what are the cool cities in the south these days because when I was growing up, it was Chapel Hill, Austin, Athens, maybe Nashville. I think Asheville, North Carolina seems to be on the up and up. Asheville's great. I love Asheville. Asheville's cool. I think I like Charleston the best. I mean, it's a little more commercial, but it has more to offer. I like how Old Navy has a big selection, same kind of vibe. That's about it, though. I mean, Nashville's blown out. Austin is blown out.

But Austin and Nashville are blown out in a way that I hate to admit I don't mind because those places never contain such culture to me. It's like I'd rather there be an equinox there than not. I don't see – like I can still get a breakfast taco. Shitty with equinox is better than just shitty. Yeah, like I don't romanticize like Richard Linklater's Austin. That's not my thing. But I think the South is – I think Houston and Dallas, I think all those places are thriving. I think they're doing quite well. economically because obviously there's no taxes, you know, and that's, and it's hot. That's all you really need to attract people at this point. And Landman and 1823 and Yellowstone and all those shows are really making the wide open plains of Texas, uh, you know, appealing. What do you, what do you think about all of this sort of, what do you think about the American flag of it all? The fact that all of this, all of these shows and movies are sort of pandering to. They're not it's not super obvious. They're walking a line, but we know who it's for. And it's partly for me. It's partly for somebody else. Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing about it is just how not aspirational it is for anyone outside of the United States. And so, you know, the United States used to be the center of pop culture. And one of the things I kind of track in the book is the degree to which I still think America is pulling most of the weight, but that it's producing a bunch of things that just have no appeal outside of its borders. And so, I mean, K-pop. is interesting to the degree to which it can appeal to all these people in South America, or it's not just an East Asia thing. But yeah, I don't know if people in the UK are really psyched to watch Yellowstone. Well, let's use Japan, your home, as a case study. Famously loved the Western culture of America from the 50s, 40s, 30s, 60s, all that stuff. And now... We are returning back to cowboy-related content and dramas. Do Japanese people romanticize watching Yellowstone and Landman and all these Paramount shows with... Absolutely not. Old white guys? I don't think a single person has seen any of them. Okay. Landman does sound like a grocery store in Japan, though, I will say. I mean, Landman is good as hell, but I also do think that it's not...

super ripe for exporting yeah based on the i mean i think but i do think there's a time where we romanticize like cowboys which is kind of what it is but maybe you've just moved we've moved on chris chris what did you think you've been to korea what do you think i know you've already talked about this but what did what do you think i'm good i'm good i don't know if i need to go back i would go back i'm going i'm going to tokyo for the first time in december i'm very excited yeah yeah of course but i think that um i think that k-pop is one of the hardest things for me to understand maybe ever in my life culturally because the music isn't good and the the like whole thing some of it is feels so corrupt and wild that's what's fascinating to me but it seems to be that that's just fine these people are basically on like indentured servants and everybody's cool with it that that's the most fascinating thing yeah but is is tate mccray and somber Is their life that much different? Yes, 100%. We don't know that. They can have sex and do drugs without going to jail. Right. I'm not talking about the legal ramifications in each country, but more so in the way that they're being incubated by the higher powers that be and everything that they do is being controlled. with the silent hand i don't think i don't think anything compares to k-pop in that way because they're like bread for it like i mean they're literally put into like a camp when they're children the same body same face disney club bro disney same shit chris how often do you drink k-pop flavored cocahola these days i never had a sip when i was there and i tried to bring one back to have jason try it and it was too big to go through the screen but they made me a can with my name on it i was like this is pretty sick actually and then i was trying i was literally like i'm gonna bring it to jason to get an expert to taste this and at security they were like nah chief i drank a coca-cola last night while discussing the new cat's eye single so i feel like i got pretty close to whatever it is you guys are talking about right now same thing yeah same thing i don't know but is that do you think that the korean and japanese like

When companies like Coca-Cola or whatever try to do something specifically for these markets, how different is it than the regular products that we're getting in America? Like, do they really tailor it, or is it sort of a packaging thing? When I was growing up, there was always a rumor, if you went to the Coca-Cola Museum, they had, like, a room where you could taste all the Coca-Colas. That's real. I've been there several times. And it's like they have flour-flavored drinks from Japan. It's not like Japan was on, like, a... different dimension. But I don't know. It's all kind of the same. They've got the miso. They've got the Gojujang Coca-Cola. It's all there. Yeah. And once in a while, I go to the convenience store and there's Mellow Yellow. And it's like, I didn't expect to see that. But I know there's Dr. Pepper. There's Coke. It's all the same. Everything's homogenized everywhere. I would agree. But then there's the fascination with the 7-Eleven and how it's not a place where people go to take a piss. It's like a place you eat dinner. That to me is more than... Biggest differences. I wouldn't go that far. Just a table for three. The egg sandwich holds up. There's so much preservatives in the food. I can't eat it. Sure, but I guess there's also something that's happened in America in the last, I would say, 10 years where it's sort of... romanticized by upper middle class people to enjoy fast food yes as like a treat and talk about it like whether it's chick-fil-a or raisin canes like chrissy tegan saying like here's my mcdonald's order you got like that it's become yeah it's become like a uh i don't know it's it's just different it's not looked down upon you know it's not at all look it's looked as sort of just like participating in like american or like low culture i guess is the way to put it it's what happens when the dumb dumbs are in charge i but i mean i do love American fast food and Chick-fil-A is a flavor you can't get unless you're at a Chick-fil-A. Maybe you should fry a pickle. You can probably replicate it a little bit. I mean, McDonald's is a flavor that you can't get anywhere else, but that doesn't necessarily... I mean, I don't think that anyone thinks that the food is good, but I think it's like a chemical reaction that they have. Nobody likes Zin, but nevertheless, I'm taking a Zin. You know what I mean? It tastes like you're chewing aluminum foil, but...

You keep coming back to it, you know? Smoking cigarettes is disgusting, but it's also sick. Are you smoking cigs over there? Jason or me? I know Jason's smoking cigs. I'm talking about you because you got your personal ass straight. I got a pack of Armenian cigarettes. Vic, our driver, if anyone needs a driver in LA, just let me know. But I referred him to somebody, and he's like, Jason, you smoke, right, Mr. Jason? I go, yeah. He pulls out a pack of cigarettes from his trunk, Armenian cigarette, and I was like, I'm not going to smoke this shit. I smoked one last night. I shouldn't have doubted the Armenians in the cigarette space. They do more research than anyone outside of the Chinese. I was in Europe, and I did get very seduced by the hand-rolled. Like, hand-rolled culture is pretty cool. And then you can get tobacco that actually has flavor that doesn't just taste like, you know, chemical processed, whatever, the ones in the boxes. So you can get, I mean, I... You can get the vanilla and you get like a Baja Blast one probably too. It doesn't have those fake chemicals. You can just get a nice normal Baja Blast. But you can get like Virginia or something. You can get mango. You can get some nice old school tobacco flavor. I like something is wrong in my body with nicotine. And so I just every time I'm massively hung over, it's because I like actually smoked a cigarette. So I have to have to be careful. It contributes. Well, what is your. So as a person who writes what you write, can you just enjoy something or do you is your. is your wheel turning too much to sort of just be like that was good and not feel like you need to find a place to you okay i can't no i can't but he's doing it a different he's doing it at white paper level we're doing it at bathroom level no i can absolutely not enjoy it uh without thinking about it too much but i mean so for example like this new geese album I really like this new Geese album at a basic level. I just like listening to it, but at the same time, I have this ping of doubt, which is like, am I being reactionary by being into this Geese album? Should I be rejecting these rock and roll conventions? Am I going to get shit for liking this Geese album too much because we're at the point where Geese is overrated? The summer of 2001, when I moved to New York,

the strokes were oh my god the strokes are the biggest deal and then within three weeks it was the strokes are overrated and then within two weeks it was the strokes are uh yes they're overrated but they're actually incredible so like with geese like i'm i'm very worried like what part of the cycle am i in etc etc so yeah there's no way i can you have to trust yourself bro no i i think a lot of way you trusted yourself about the strokes yeah i didn't have i didn't have an opinion about the strokes they were uh hard to explain is definitely top Top 10 great song of the 21st century, though. I played that song at a wedding in New York three days ago. It's good for karaoke, too. It's a good karaoke track. But, no, I way overthink everything, and I don't know. I like stuff. I mean, I like stuff a lot, but even if I like it, I'll think about it and think about what other people are saying about it, too. You're not able to listen to Psy's Gangnam Style because you know that he's a draft dodger and has been arrested for marijuana possession, whereas most people in the world are just able to enjoy his perfect music. I didn't know that at all, but the funny thing about that track was the degree in which there was a million think pieces. I read it in your book. Yeah, but there's a million think pieces that were like, oh, that song is actually this incredibly subtle satire of class consciousness. The references to coffee are talking about the class stratification. It's basically like a clash song. yeah and then i read the lyrics i'm like what the fuck are they talking about it's just like literally just there's there's four references to coffee and that's what and then the hey sexy ladies uh that's about that's about it i think i think actually one of my fact checks was i'm sorry it's not hey sexy ladies it's just hey sexy lady it's like thank you because he's a one man he's yeah size of one kind one woman kind of guy he's not a philanderer we know that but i've seen some cool photos of si like backstage at shows and like hanging out with other people and he's like It was just nice to learn that this guy, who you think is just this one-hit wonder, cheesiest dude of all time, like a Mambo No. 5 type of scenario, but he's actually a sick-ass guy. He's done a lot of cool stuff, and he just happened to have the biggest song of the last, whatever, 50 years in Asia. And now he's like a Guy Fieri of Korea. I had a friend who worked with Psy because he spoke Korean.

and helped like in america and then he became part of the team and to this day some of the greatest stories i've ever heard about touring was like the heyday of psy and how much money was being exchanged for him to do that one song all it was so global that i i don't know if honestly it might have been the last of its kind as far as like Sort of a novelty, but really had a tail. He was probably doing that shit for five years. Oh, yeah. Lil Nas X, when that was big, he was not traveling over the world to perform that song. It was just kind of like... I felt very U.S. focused. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not on the global scale. So a couple notes from the book I wanted to go over. Hit me. Speaking of music, I didn't know that Justin Bieber's mom... was against him signing with Scooter Braun because he was Jewish. No, well, she talked to her church elders, and they blessed it. Duh. Yeah, that's an incredible quote. That's from a New York Times story. Does she not know how Hollywood works? You got to, I mean, come on. She didn't know. I guess, yeah, she's from outer Ontario. Yes. She learned quickly that. It was a wise choice to side with Scooter Braun. The church elders knew. They knew how things worked. They blessed it. They're like, hold on, he fucks with Usher? Let's do this. Look, they're not going to heaven, but they have a way with these deals. You know what I mean? And I also didn't know that Bieber signed Carly Rae Jepsen and made Call Me Maybe. a thing yeah i mean the the urban legend in the way that usher signed him and the way that akon signed lady gaga my understanding of the chain of events that led to call me maybe is that the song was being played on radio in canada because canada has that rule where they have to play like 60 canadian music or someone some canadian's got to fact check this but they have to play canadian music so they're playing it and he hears it on the radio is like this is incredibly catchy and then he calls scooter it's like we gotta sign her and then signs her and then they make the kind of viral video and that's what makes it makes it go but it looked like some sort of just amateur fan project the bieber's just into her and that's why it got big but there's a lot of mac and i ask a question can i ask a question about the i don't know what the viral video is there's like a video of him and selena like they posted like a selfie of them like singing the song on on social media and obviously

That's all you have to do to have something catch fire. Like a low-budget smartphone video of them lip-syncing the song in their house. Probably on Twitter, like pre-Instagram even, maybe. Okay, that will lead to success. I mean, that still would lead to success. Oh, yeah. Okay, so you wrote about when the written word and text-based media was sort of replaced by memes and imagery. And things like that. And that's where we're living right now. And that's why I wrote a book. Yeah, exactly. Which could not be adapted into a screenplay or a film at all. Unless we get, you know, a great document. Kenny Burns on the horn or something like that. But that would be cool. You should work with him. But now that video is sort of king and everything is moving into that space. And it's, you know, it's sort of the new JPEG in so many ways. Because anyone can create it and edit it. and it's a moving photo, so we like it more. Do you think that something is next? Are you predicting the rise of something that will be post-video, or is that sort of where things end? I really think we're going back to real life in the sense that Sora is going to make it where you can, by prompt, create a video of anything right like if you think it's pretty good right now you know in five years it's going to be like make me a scorsese film and then you're going to have a scorsese film so like We're moving past Will Smith eating spaghetti pretty quickly. It's not even going to be weird and quirky anymore. It's just going to be like every single thing you see online will be generated by your aunt. And your aunt is just making like new seasons of Real Housewives in cities that never existed. And so you're never going like everything online. is going to feel less valuable and all media is going to feel less valuable and all video will feel less valuable. And so the only thing you'll trust is to see things in real life. And so we may be moving towards just like a complete destruction of all mediation. You heard it here first. Mediation. Mediation. So right now, a 13-year-old who's very savvy with the intranet.

they're able to really detect if something is AI-based or Sora created versus, you know, your boomer grandma or your dad easily tricked by a fake video, of course. Or me. Or me. Or Chris, I didn't want to say. Are we ever going to reach a point where, like, are the young, smart, savvy kids always going to be able to tell when something is real or fake on the Internet? Or are we going to reach a point where... Too good. The uncanny valley is non-existent. I mean, you should assume that it's going to get so good that you can't tell the difference anymore. That's the whole point. Yeah. But also our human brains will get so good at knowing all of it. You know what I mean? Don't sleep on humans. No, I think we should sleep on humans. I've got a dope little computer up here in the mental. It's going to make real life more valuable. Social media is making in-person things more valuable. You guys talk about restaurants all the time. It's because being in a restaurant... Yeah, but people have been saying experiential marketing has been a hot new thing for the last 15 years. We've got to do things IRL. Don't you like doing things IRL? I don't think we're going in that direction. No, I think we are. I do too, but I think that overall humanity is doing less and less. I can't solve humanity. We're door-dashing our McDonald's more than going to McDonald's. We're losing the IRL battle. Nobody goes to a movie theater. Oftentimes, people aren't dining out. They're having everything brought to them. I think one of the issues is you can't solve... these problems for everybody and one of the things about being an angsty teenager in 1992 that i think we've forgotten is i wasn't i just didn't like heavy metal i liked rem but i didn't care if the entire world like liked rem it was just like we had our own thing and that you're out proud and i think that's dope yeah but the thing so it's like what you're saying now is like is the normal human going to just sit around watching ai slop probably like that's but the but in terms of like people who care uh people who care about video and music and all these things they'll probably just want to be real life there's always a there's always a fucking rubber band i mean there's always like a you know when anything gets too popular people are going to rebel i forgot i played this thing for you but suno which generates music right you can give it a prompt and it'll create create a song i was trying to break it and so i gave it the lyrics to wonderwall

and then just called the song not wonderwall and said i want to in the genre of british uh acoustic brit pop and it literally just gave me wonderwall but it's like a bad christian rock cover of wonderwall uh but it's like exact phrasing and melody of wonderwall um and so i i can i guess i do that later but it's i mean the other thing about these systems is they're just obviously pulling from stuff that we've already seen before and so it's just not it's never going to be that interesting now that we're in a stuck culture as they say yeah but we gotta you know you guys are fighting the good fight you're you're you're unstuck in it thank you thank you we you were you were discussing um recession pop whatever you know 20 years ago katie perry black eyed peas all that stuff and that is now fully back like i mentioned djing a wedding before like if you play black eyed peas let's get retarded in here in 2025 it's the song of the night And is it a bummer that we are not creating the 2025 version of Katy Perry and Black Eyed Peas or all this stuff? Or are we really going to be stuck forever just playing these old songs? I mean, how many more Beatles films can they make? Like, I like the Beatles, but I don't need... I don't need every year to be marked by the release of a different Beatles documentary or film. Hey, bro, it's the 33rd and a half anniversary. You have to celebrate that. Like, what do you mean? Yeah, but you're not a 67-year-old rich guy with a fucking Apple TV in his living room. Talk to me in 20 years, 30 years, when they keep cranking out Stereolab documentaries or Chibomato or whatever, you're going to be singing a different tune, brother, man. I love David looks you up. He's like, all right, you were right. Goddamn. All right. The fourth Stereo Lab documentary I did by the DVD. I did by the DVD. It's too good. If you complain the culture is stuck or is less interesting, the first criticism you get is something like, oh, you just like what you like when you're 18, and then you think it all goes to shit from there. My point is not that at all, which is that I want to be confused.

totally uh outraged about the culture that's going on i want like i want beats that i don't understand and so like like when juke came out or something it's like well that's weird i don't understand what that is i mean drill is like i think similar too which is like that's that's really uh a new thing what happened to music you want that you want to say that out loud when you listen to something for the first time yeah uh like the the fantasy was always like yeah the music would just get weirder and weirder until it was impenetrable and it went the complete opposite direction so you know when you listen to taylor i don't know bro i don't know i don't know bro too hollis i mean i don't know if you've checked it out but you know yeah i guess everybody's idea of impenetrable is different though but like so much of taylor swift is like I don't need to listen to Taylor Swift because I've already heard every Taylor Swift song that's ever been written. Yeah, yeah. No, true, true, true. Yeah. It's like the restaurant that sells grilled cheese sandwiches. You're like, I think I know what's going to happen here. But some of the thing with Taylor Swift is I'm not an expert on her catalog, but a friend of mine who is made me a mix to encourage me to understand it. Yes. And I have to say that it is like a lot like it all does sound the same. But when it's. When one stands out, it's kind of unbelievable how good it is, if that makes sense. It does have a general, but then if you get 10 of the best ones, I'm like, oh, these are different. This is very clearly different, but it is the same. It's very confusing. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of it that just sounds like Lisa Loeb or something. If you had heard Lisa Loeb or Natalie Imbruglia, you know what these songs are. country versions yeah i mean i agree with you chris if you like the that episode of the bear when when ebon is like he has a win with his daughter or something like that and and love story comes on the radio and he starts singing it you're like you know you can't help but be swept up in the way that when lena dunham would drop robin dancing on my own as they're jumping up on the bed you're like

This is the dumbest thing ever, but you got me. I like it too much. Yeah. I mean, that's the new Robin dropping. Jason, I'm hearing it's amazing. It is. It is. I'm going to go see her tomorrow for an event powered by Acne Clothing Company. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out to my Acne family. I love when the Swedes get together and make something happen over in Los Angeles. Should we do a concert? Okay, do we want to, I guess, I mean, we pretty much covered everything. Wired Magazine called Tesla Sex on Wheels. Not so much anymore. I thought that was a funny one. It could not be further from the truth. Lastly, could you explain the Vice 22 rule? And if that's something that you could see a version of happening today ever. Obviously not the same thing. So the Vice 22 rule is that you... hire 22 year olds, pay them $22,000 a year and work them 22 hours a day. Is that correct? I feel like I'm being quizzed, but that was, that was a thing. Bitch, you wrote the book. Yeah, but it's a long time ago. It was, that was a year ago. Yeah, it's a long time. It's a big book. Wow. That's a good, that's a good theory. And I think that that is how, I think you could do the same about Buzzfeed or, you know, like all of that era. I think that what it was, I think they were able to create a culture where people wanted to be at work. And they didn't care how much they were being paid. And I think that's over. But what if we all hate our life and we want an escape? We don't have any friends. We don't have a family or a social element. Are there people out there who don't need the money as much? Maybe they come from a background where it's fine and they can live off of whatever the equivalent of $22K a year is nowadays. in order to feel like you're really part of something authentic and you're down to work hard and you're not going to do it for your entire life. But it's like a boot camp for four years if you're not a fucking snowflake. You know what I mean? That's crypto, right? It's not vice anymore. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just kind of general hustle, culture, Andrew Tate kind of living. I think if you look at any of these sort of media companies, those people are working there. Like that kind of the 22-year-old who's down to work hard.

and maybe doesn't need the money, whether it's because, you know, for whatever reason, because they either don't care or because they have it from their family. Like, those people still populate the Condé Nast Tower. Like, that is still who powers those businesses. And that can, I mean, that's, you go to any fashion, you know, it's like the intern, this and, you know, it's like, that's still happening. But I don't think it's like... I think we glamorized it a bit and now that would be like, why aren't you making more – you know what I mean? Because you have the crypto guys being like, it's so easy. Just download my program on Instagram and you can be – it's like that's the difference. It's not rewarded anywhere. Also, if you talk to like editor-in-chiefs who came up through a lot of getting coffees for their former bosses and being assistants, they – really dislike the degree that like gen z employees hate doing any work and are just like yeah uh and and so i think the hustleness also is is is gone it's like bifurcated like there's people are only hustling and then there's a bunch of interns who who don't think they have to hustle at all Yeah. Damn, it takes two kinds. Yeah, and then our man Tom Freston, he got rug-pulled by Vice just the way the crypto bros are rug-pulling nowadays. History repeating itself, and that can be all found in blank space, W. David Marks, which is available today on the newsstands. Cultural history of the 21st century. I already knew all of this stuff, but it was... You're so good at writing that it was a pleasure to read still. Thank you. Yeah, we value you as guys who do this for a living, and I think more people should value you. It's very kind. It's an important thing to do, and I think everybody's got no attention span, but I think some of this stuff is worth it. thinking about like i don't you know is worth thinking about deeply not not on in like an emotional way but just in like a what does this actually mean kind of way because it's so easy we got to look to the past to know how where to go forward you know what i mean dead ass that's what jason was saying when he was trying to get his chick back but the

The book is everywhere. Go to barnesandnoble.com. Go to bookshop.org. You can hit McNally Jackson. We've got to get our guy on the hot best, the 10 bestseller list. We've got to knock Keith McNally out of there. He's been out there for too long. Let's get some fresh blood in there. It's probably a Popeye store with a book signing soon, yeah? Oh, definitely. Definitely that. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. No, thank you guys. Hope you had fun. I did. Summer is here, and King Soopers is your destination for hot savings. Find unique items at low prices with a wide assortment of products from our exclusive brands. Fire up the grill with cookout classics like burgers and brats, and don't forget delicious produce like fresh melons. Or beat the heat with frozen treats while chilling poolside. Whatever your summer plans, King Soopers makes it easy to enjoy high-quality, fresh food at affordable prices. King Soopers. Fresh for everyone.