083. - Sam Hockley-Smith

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on youtube hello chris wow you're loud as hell today bro oh no i'm sorry it's okay you're excited about your new cord um i'm excited about our new cord um Had some technical difficulties last time we were recording, but I think I got a real juicy fat daddy XLR to headphone cable. This thing is thicker than... I don't even know. It's thicker than a large Sharpie. Wow, great comparison. I thought you were going to compare it to a woman's behind of some sort. No, no. This is a long... This is more of a penis-like shape than anything on a woman's body. Oh, I see. So it's bigger than your dick, then is what you're saying. law at the very least it is longer the more important question though kinfolk chris how are you doing kinfolk chris is good man i'm just i had a long day today it's chris spelled like jenner sorry continue you already know the vibes um just a long day you know man got up early got my trainer in had to be on location for some tom brown content creation um what time did you wake up earlier than normal because you're already no no No, 5.30. Normal wake-up time, 5.30. Real CEO shit, you know what I'm saying? I actually had to get up at 5.30 as well. What'd you have to do, walk a dog or something? Well, that was one of my duties today, if you must know. But my LP had a shoot today, and she had to be on set at like 7. You had to steam some stuff for her before she left? Her alarm went off at 5.30, waking me up.

30 minutes before my normal scheduled time. And I must say, I had no problem waking up at 5.30. Bay was annoyed about how awake I was. Well, that's because you were washing her feet before the shoot. Yeah, baby. I'm a grown-ass man. I love to wash my queen's feet off rip. That's my morning Joe. Some folks like coffee, tea. Croissant, but not I. No, you're just like 12 digits. Yeah, you know Bay got an extra two toes. I thought she might. I've noticed her in some interesting footwear choices. She can't wear the Vibram finger shoes. She owns a pair, but she does have issues with them. To keep it all the way 100. I love when you keep it all the way. I went to the dry cleaners this morning after seeing Hunter. I had to pick up my suit, and I haven't put on the Tom Brown uniform in months. I haven't put on anything of this caliber in months. And I tell you what, bro, I felt like a million fucking dollars. Yeah, once you put that skirt on, baby, oh, yeah. It was like LeBron suiting up for game one of the finals, right? First of all, it was the regular suit. I couldn't find the skirt in my closet when my dear friend Dana Veraldi was shipping the suit to me as a favor. My king, there is nothing regular about that. uh that hemline on those tbs but carry on they were a long pants um technically Yeah, I wore my suit with my custom Tom Brown brogues that I tricked out with the Vibram sold so I can really kick your ass when you start talking to me. You got the TB shit kickers is what you got. I got the TB. Yeah, you ain't ever seen these. I would wear these to the fucking Earth Crisis show. You know what I'm saying? Suited and booted, ready for your anarchist NYC district beatdown to partake in. Exactly, exactly. But it was a great day. Tom himself was...

in good spirits he was rocking a fire bucket hat on set which i was just really like he was really serving a look was it was it a tom brown bucket or was it a different brand he would never no of course no no of course it was a tom brown bucket but i i it was i believe it was reversible actually but it looked very cool on him you know all all good buckets are that's a good point so yeah i've had a big day today so then and now i'm back in the lab back in the ac talking to you um so it's been kind of a you know i started the top and now i'm ending somewhere near the bottom with a TJ convo, but I'll take it. Well, there's plenty to cover. Don't worry. Luckily, you are a bottom, and we are here to get to the bottom of what has been going down. Yesterday, you and I played tennis, knocked the cobwebs off. It's been a little while since I was on my Vision Quest journey out in Arizona. You did have a fun moment where I hit the ball to you. You attempted to return it, and then the ball went, and it flew and smashed you square in the nose on the day before your big Tom Brown skirt day. Luckily, it wasn't bleeding, but let's be honest, there was a cut. I was shook, but I did feel like my play, since my ankle injury, I haven't been 100%. Yesterday, I feel like I was 75%. And I think you saw the socks. You know what I'm saying? Do you think that had something to do with my performance? Or do you think the socks were not good luck? No, I did see the socks. I mean, they were good luck because instead of me beating you six games to zero, I beat you five games to one. So, yeah, you did have a little luck of the Canadian Irish as you were wearing your certified lover boy. Play by Comme des Garcons socks. When I look down. Hearts over stress. When I look down at where my foot meets my leg, and I see the word certified where I'm dripping in sweat, it really makes me feel like an athlete. Yeah, the good part about those certified socks is it says the word certified, but it's on a part of the foot that is covered by the shoe. So only Papa knows.

When I rocked my Birkenstocks to the court because I got to change into my court shoes when I get there, then you can look down and see it, which is nice. It's like a little pick-me-up in the day. It's like a little secret for me. Yeah, it's a daily affirmation where it's like, by golly, you know what? I am certified. I'm a certified motherfucking killer. I am. I am. And it was good to get out there with you again. And that court that we were in yesterday was nice and private. It felt almost like a residential court, which TJ found, I don't know what suburb it's in. It's near Glendale. It is the neighboring city of Glendale. A lot of people ask me for real estate tips, of course. This is a TJ pick. No one has ever asked you for a real estate tip. No one. I've got the golden touch, all right? Ask anyone. Ask anyone down at Keller Williams. Ask anyone over at those jokers down at Compass. They know where to find me, and they know that I'm pulling out top picks. TJ's name ring bells, not Compass. currently looking for any working capital, I can make your investment dreams come true. I'm just a little cash poor right now. I understand. I'm not entirely liquid, but I do have the skills and I'm able to choose what neighborhood is going to be all the way lit in seven to ten years, which is a great investment. When you're ready to retire from the big city and move out to the suburbs, TJ is your man, the relator to the star. Chris, you collect the bag on a daily basis, but I need people who are working with a little bit more capital to play with. You know what I mean? I understand. I'm a renter. I like the freedom. I want to be able to come and go as I please. My plan is to make as much money as possible so I never have to think about anything again. Is there an age year that you want to hit and retire where you don't have to worry about anything else again? Why would anyone retire? It's so boring. Retirement is for losers. Honestly, it's so boring. I want to work until I die.

Yeah, I think maybe as you get a little bit older, you might be singing a different tune. Or maybe if you did something that was more tangible work, you might be feeling a different way. You know, Jason, since we're partners in the same endeavor, I'm not sure if you're in a position to call what I do any different than what you do. That is true. I'm just saying more of like, don't get me wrong. You get the job done. You collect the bag. You're a master of biz dev. And what you are is a closer. But a lot of the work that you're putting in is not necessarily like a manual, tangible task. It's all going down in the brain, which is not a diss. It seems like a diss. Just because I'm not fucking digging holes in my front yard in the suburbs doesn't mean I'm not a man, okay? And I'm sick of this fucking line of questioning, to be honest with you. You, my friend, call him Kodak because you're projecting right now. God damn it. Maybe a little bit. All right. I wanted to get on to a bigger subject, but I don't know if we have time before we hop on with our guest, Sam. So maybe we'll wait for that. But we were recently besmirched and featured in the NY Starter Pack Instagram page. Yeah, and I felt like it was honestly a little bit of an attack, considering that you nor I have ever said shorts and hoodie season or hoodies and shorts season. That's lame. That is lame. There was a post made. It was like a starter pack post. We've all seen them where it's a collection of images that truly read someone or a thing where it's like blah, blah, blah, starter pack, and then a picture of a crumpled up. carton of cigarettes and like a empty coke bag and then you know a cha-cha matcha drink whatever you know whatever and then you're like oh that's me af blah blah blah but we had one created about us that that showed like literally 99 of the items included in the starter pack had absolutely nothing to do with us and it's and it featured us saying

If I hear one more bi-coastal elite fashion Twitter accounts mentioning that it's shorts and hoodie weather or season, I'm going to lose my mind or whatever. And it had a weird pair of green Nike shorts and a Noah hoodie and a chair that I've never seen anyone I know have. The chair was pretty nice, but I would say the rest of it. I mean, the chair was nice, sure. The chair was nice, but I don't. Look, I think her point was that it's not us, it's our listeners, which is very possible. And unfortunately, you can't choose who listens to your podcast. It's like you can't choose who wears your clothes. It is not possible. Even though a lot of cool, hot people... you know listen to this podcast you know unfortunately there's a lot of fucking mouth breathers that would wear that outfit that listen to this podcast as well and i disagree that is false and fake news all of our all of our listeners are hot cool young i've said it before 18 to 24 demo 50 female 50 male and they are all um just at the end of the day really good people who would never wear shorts and a hoodie or mention now you know wear that together or mention it publicly Unless it was an emergency, you've got to take out the trash or pick up a mail package, perhaps. I think it's okay to wear those two garments together, but talking about it seems a little uncouth, a little silly, a little un-ness. Yeah. We can leave that to the jokers over at Throwing Fitz to ever mention something about that. Those guys can wear their big boots they made with their shorts and their hoodies, and they can go to Greenpoint or wherever they go. They can go take a freaking hike, if you ask me. I won't be wearing those kind of get-ups to my local eateries or coffee shops. I will continue to wear my shorts and my tabby loafers and maybe a tasteful polo or a button-up.

You know what I mean? I don't need... You know, also in LA, bro, it's too hot for the hoodie. I mean, I have this brand new Champion Reverse Weave Vintage Dartmouth hoodie in a perfect green color that I haven't even been able to wear yet because it's so hot. She's sitting on ice, isn't she? I got fucking... I got garms on Deckington and I got nowhere to wear them. The life of CB. Nobody asked for this hell, but you're living in it. It's really hard. Jason, we do have a guest today. And our guest has been through a lot with us in the last 24 hours. Yeah, there's been timing, schedules, flipped around. We've had some issues, but our guest today is the writer Sam Hockley-Smith, who actually lives in LA. Thank God he's on PST. He used to work at... new york magazine's vulture but he's contributed everywhere from uh you know pitchfork to victory journal to stereo gum you know the fader etc etc etc and you know luckily timing is is really truly blessed rolling stone came out with the 500 best albums of all time today um and of course it's torched but i i want to i love having a music business professional on to give us give us their opinion on on you know marvin gay being number one like have these guys not heard exile main street like what's the fucking what i need to i need to pull this up then pull it up kang pull it up but look let's let's give sam a call because i'm sure he's anticipating this after 48 hours of bullshit with me via text hell yes so give give him a call and and we'll we'll hash it out all righty then all right all right this episode of how long gone is brought to you by quince jason the temps are warming up It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and that are just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated.

but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional.

as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. We do apologize for the runaround. We had some technical difficulties yesterday. I want to make sure you understand the blame is fully on Jason as he is the AV team of this podcast. I have nothing to do with any technical stuff. I don't blame you, Jason. It's okay. It happens. Okay. You can forgive him. I'll hold my grudge. Him and I will deal with it privately. Well, I lost my appetite. Sam, how are you, man? I'm good. I'm really good. This is going to sound like really kind of fancier than it needs to maybe, but I had my house cleaned for the first time since March by a person who isn't me. Sure, sure, sure. I had a feeling that was the catch. This is a very pro-professional house cleaning podcast, so we respect that. Yeah, my house was just cleaned 24 hours ago, baby. And you know what? TJ already made a big old mess, didn't he?

I bet he did. I mean, as a person who's living in a hotel, I get it cleaned as often as I can. But I think the... There's nothing – now, did you have the sheets and towels cleaned or did you do that yourself? Oh, I'm a big fan of like getting it – like having it all washed and then kind of just like having her make the bed like super pro style. I see. Yes. Yeah, nothing like a crisp corner from a professional. I couldn't agree. You like a little foreplay before you really dive in for a deep scrub. There was definitely some pre-clean cleaning happening. You have to. You have to. It's out of respect. From professional to professional, you have to do that. You lived in New York for a long time though, right? Yeah, I lived in New York for 12 years, I think. Wow, graduate. And now you're in sunny Los Angeles where I am displaced and Jason is from. What hood are you living in? I'm in Atwater Village. Oh, Gatwater. We call that Gatwater Spillage on this side. So what gangs are you in? The ones that are left. How many are left? Am I right, brother? It's not even. Not my America, but right now it is pretty much just the Tunerville rascals and the avenues pretty much holding court in Atwater. See, I wasn't even aware of that anymore. I thought there was like nothing. Yeah, the only real gang is like when somebody reaches over you at the farmer's market for a collection of kale. Violence will strike at that point. And it's very fraught now to do that. I feel like my farmer's market experiences are like, get your arm away from my body. So are you going to the Gatwater farmer's market? As a person who doesn't cook, I've been to that a shocking amount of times. And do you get oysters or do you get the Jamaican food? I have had both, but I don't make a habit of getting either. I feel like as a guy who lived in New York for so long, I'm not like the Jamaican food is good. No hate, but it's not like same quality. Oh, no. I mean, yeah. I mean, no one's going to disagree with you on that. L.A. has a lot of great food, better food than New York in some areas. But Jamaican food and anything of the Caribbean type, we are not at all coming close to New York.

It's not bad. It's passable, but what celebrities have you seen at Proof Bakery? Oh, man. Natalie Portman. Classic Portman viewing area. Her fat ass is there every fucking day. I've never seen you there, Jason. Damn. You haven't seen – Portman's putting down the canales. I don't know how she's doing it. Yeah, I kind of stopped going there after it turned into a weird liberal arts coffee shop. You know, you, you wasn't there back in the day, you know, you were probably still in New York when it was, when it was prime proofing, but you know, you, that's no fault of your own, Sam. That's true. It's not my fault. I did see a funny one that this doesn't count, but a very specific moment was walking by there, like right before the pandemic started and seeing Zach DeLaRocca and LP having a conversation. That is actually my fucking nightmare. One out of two ain't bad. De La Roche is... Look, De La Roche revisionist history yet again. We've talked about it on this podcast. Raging as a Machine was radio rock, and now they're looked at as this thing that they weren't. I don't get it. The only cool thing about De La Roche is that he was in Inside Out. That's the coolest thing about him is that he's a real hardcore kid. That is the coolest thing about him, but I think in terms of rock star energy, rock star lifestyle swag, he could do a lot worse than De La Roche. And he probably does good things with his supreme riches that he has created over the years. And he's probably a chill, normal guy. I used to yell De La Roche at him whenever I saw him. And he did not enjoy it whatsoever. Do you think him and Morello are splitting this shit equally, Sam? Who's got the more royalties coming through? That's a great question. That is a really hard question to answer. I was about to just impulsively say that he's got more and Morello's kind of like... I think Morello donated too much of it.

So his money-taking privileges were revoked? No, I think they made a similar amount of money, maybe even the same amount of money. But Tom, he spent it all on MIT degrees and ACLU donations. And Zach is over here getting the fucking Escalade. That's cool. But LP is my enemy. He doesn't know that. But Run the Jewels are my enemies. But I understand those guys linking and building. It kind of makes sense. Sam, are you a run the jeweler? Are you a jewel stan? It's complicated. The short answer is no. Good, because we're about to hang up. We're about to hang up. Okay, why is it complicated? Is LP your cousin? LP is not my cousin, but I have a... You know, everyone's got their, like, teenage music thing, and my teenage music thing was underground rap in a very, very deep way. Sam. Okay, okay. Sam, you're a Def Jux daddy? I am. I would say that those two people, yeah, I mean, sure, I guess I'm going to have to do that. You know what? Yeah, fuck it, I am. My name is Sam, and I am a Def Jux daddy. Hold for applause. What was your... What were your number one Def Jux releases? Oh, man. Well, I was in high school when they were coming out with the Prime. So I would say it was probably the Cannibal Ox album, The Cold Vein. Oh, baby. That first LP solo album, Fantastic Damage. And then Aesop Rock's Labor Days. oh my god okay well it's been nice having you ladies please we're gonna talk we're gonna talk about everlane in a minute just hold tight i just you know you gotta you gotta own this stuff that's like i agree it's true we all we all have our own version of def juxt

skeletons in our closet, right? Yes. Jason and I also, you know, we were both into hardcore, so we think that's cool, when in reality it's all kind of the same. It's all the same shit. It's all like, it's all, I mean, I know I listen to the, not to get too self-referential, but I listen to the podcast you have with my friend Matthew Schnipper, and I was listening to you guys talk about hardcore and thinking about how we spent years just arguing about whose music knowledge was more irrelevant, my underground rock knowledge or his hardcore knowledge. And I think mine's more irrelevant. i mean i just find even yeah i i don't i just for whatever reason i i didn't ever that stuff was just not hard i mean i knew about it and like listened to a little bit it was like fringes to me but that just wasn't really around in my life and i'm you know i thank god every day for that i think i think both genres underground like punk and hardcore and then underground hip-hop like you know they both have the same amount of of getting people to have sex with you which is zero they both have the same amount of like weird fringe breakout success stories where you get like an m&m that turns into you know the most famous rapper in the world or you get a you know like you said a dayla roach you know or fallout boy you know let's use a better example like a real a real band you know what i mean let's just you know ben actually sold some records you know had big hits you know Still relevant today. Do you think Fall Out Boy sold more records than Rage Against the Machine, you fucking dumb-dumb? Come on, bro. I mean, dude, honestly, I would like to see that. Let's take it to the tape. Well, first of all, Fall Out Boy, one of the absolute worst bands of all time. I'm not going to let you do that on this podcast, Jason. Fall Out Boy has slaps, bro. Oh, God. I mean, he just looks like Magic the Gathering, like sorcery guy. I don't care. He's never had his penis sucked in his whole life, and he's singing falsettos about, like, oh, God. Oh, sorry he sounds like Michael Jackson. You don't like that. That's your problem. Yeah, I mean, I stopped listening to Michael Jackson after some news surface, Chris. You, not so much. I refuse to play his music. Jason, as a Chris Brown defender, I'm not going to allow you. Yeah, Jason's a Chris Brown apologist, and confirmed on the record. Proud.

card-carrying member of Team Breezy. I make no mistakes of it. Chris Brown makes a good song and does a good dance. Follow Boy makes awful music for like... Autistic teens who have weight problems. Fall Out Boy has at least five good songs. At least. Sam, back me up here. What do you mean by good? What do you mean by good? There's a difference between good and then successful or money-making hits. I think they have at least three that cross both of those things. By that regard, so does LMFAO. And more power to them. That's what I'm saying. You can't be that mad at Fall Out Boy. I mean, I prefer Panic at the Disco if I had to choose, but both. I would rather listen to Panic at the Disco than Fall Out Boy. I would rather listen to My Chemical Romance than Fall Out Boy as well. For sure. I agree with both of those things. I just think that Fall Out Boy has a few good songs. That's all I'm saying. I've told you my Pete Wentz story on this podcast, right? Where I got so high and then I walked into his house and Ashley Simpson was there and they were painting. Disney had sent official artists over to paint their nursery for their upcoming child. I don't think I did hear this story, Chris. Are you kidding? Are you making fun of me? No, I'm not kidding. I'm dead ass. That's the story. My friend who worked for them was living in their pool house, and him and I took one to the dome. You were high on what? I was high on marijuana. This is actually a great story. We walk into the house. Ashley is there with... with multiple artists from disney and they painted the nursery with disney characters like officially licensed which is very very sick and then i got in the car and i was so blazed and i ran out of fucking gas on sunset boulevard jesus yeah they lived in like bandit canyon yeah anyway that i but i don't i want to say this i want to say you know i don't have personal allegiances to ball boy i actually just think some of the songs are good even though even though in my time we were friendly you know it's business only

I wouldn't show favoritism. Nobody's perfect. But Sam works at the Fader, so he probably thinks we're lame for liking all this cool music. No, no. So when I worked at the Fader, I was there from 2006, 2007 through 2012. Gory days. Oh, yeah. And I remember being there with Will Welch, now the editor of GQ. And he was like the first person I knew who was like, who I knew personally, who was like, you know who's good? My Chemical Romance. And I was like... You know what? And that's why Will Welch is at the top right now. That's why Will Welch is on the top of Mass Day, because he understood that the fucking Black Parade wasn't going to stop. Oh, God. That's actually... I mean, I do think, though, now, we've talked about this a little bit on this podcast, but I think that growing up, it was very uncool to have a very diverse taste in music. You know, it's kind of like, you like this one thing. And now I feel like all these sites that you contribute to are, it's very much, it's very cool to like intellectualize pop music. And I'm for it, but I don't, when did that shift happen? Because I feel like it just happened overnight and now it's part of the lexicon and part of the conversation at all times. Yeah. So it happened, it happened once before and people kind of forgot in like 2008. when you had magazines like Blender and stuff like that, who made, that was their whole thing, is we're going to be serious about pop music. And now it's fully back. And I think it probably happened, it was happening in 2012 a little bit, but I think really what happened was as soon as companies started realizing they needed to sell ads on the internet, people just started caring a whole lot more about pop music, which is a pretty boring answer, but I think it's just honestly what happened. I guess it's probably rooted in taste. I guess there's probably some sort of study that you could do of all the 24-year-olds that came up not reflexively hating on popular things because they were popular and just are now professionals. But at the time, I really think it was just like, all right, we got to sell ads and it has to be off of our clicks and no one's clicking on stuff they don't know about.

No, that's definitely true. That's 100% true. I think pop music as a whole, people started taking it more seriously as a genre when Robin and people started liking the old Kylie Minogue stuff and certain songs and genres that was considered dumb pop music in the past ended up being kind of a good song that we all ended up liking. Britney Spears' stuff is celebrated now. And, you know, maybe people are just getting better at doing it, better at creating pop music as a real style versus just like a commodity. But don't you feel like it's kind of boring right now? Right now it's bad, yeah. I think it's hip-hop. I think hip-hop is what pushed it over. I think that like the popularity of hip-hop and not becoming popular music is like, it's cooler to like that and talk about that than it is to talk about Ariana Grande. You know what I mean? And hip-hop has become pop music. Yeah, exactly. Hip-hop is all anybody wants to talk about besides me. Ariana has not had a slap in a while. Other than Dua Lipa, not much pop music is really grabbing America or the world by the balls too much. Do people still like music? Just generally? A little bit, but generally, I don't think people really care about music that much. They care about dancing, and they care about music videos and dancing, and they care about podcasts and stuff. But music as a whole, other than Chris, people aren't really listening to it that much, from what I've seen. Just with the homies. Yeah, I mean I think you're probably right. It's like I have a whole theory that I developed that would probably get me in trouble for saying it on Twitter. So I'll just say it here. Let's go. Hey, excuse me. Hold on. Before you get into this, don't imply that no one listens to this podcast because we will hang up the phone. No. When you see where I'm going, you'll see why. They don't have a way to directly reply to us. They'll just send him a DM and be like, you know what? You shouldn't have said – I will get a DM that said you shouldn't have –

made fun of fallout boy and saying that autistic people listen to it and that's fine i love autistic people i i this is one of the only podcasts that i listen to and that's not even a lie wow blessed blessed so what is your what is your theory so my theory is that i don't know when it happened but something happened in the way that people interacted with music and the only thing that i can figure out is that there's been this like gradual subtle takeover of kind of both in artists and the people covering music of theater kids. Oh, I like this. It's worse than I thought. And I'm not, like, I can't, I'll go see a play, whatever, but, like, I'm not down for a musical. Like, I think musicals are just, I cannot sit through a musical. Musicals are all trash, baby. Hamilton, get it out of here. This is a known Hamilton hating zone. I'm with you. I did see the Carole King musical starring my friend Vanessa Carlton and enjoyed it. There's exceptions to every rule, Chris. That's true. Did you enjoy it? No. I did not enjoy it. I was waiting for it to be over. So you don't like hits. I guess that's true. You had your AirPods in listening to fucking Cannibal Ox instead of paying attention to the classic Jewish songstress. The disrespect is unbelievable. Not much is cooler than Cannibal Ox, Chris. Cannibal Ox is not cooler than much, but it is cooler than Theater Kids. I'm sorry to say. That's a good point. I don't think you're wrong about this theory. Can you expand on this, my brother? Yeah, sure. I noticed it because I was feeling... I would see people talking about music and I was feeling alienated. I was like, why am I feeling alienated by this? This is the same opinion that anyone else has. I realized that the way that everyone talks about things is super performative and they value this excessive fake emotion in music more than they used to. I don't mean in a cool, fake pop way. I mean in this really dramatic way that I'm not... Are you talking about Lana Del Rey?

No, I think Lana Del Rey is cool. She's fine. Give us an example of somebody. I think I see that a lot with maybe like a Juice WRLD type, you know, rest in peace, King. But like, you know, people who do that kind of sing-songy style of like, you know, your heart being broken and you're sad and depressed and you want to kill yourself and all that shit. No, I'm fine with that because there's a genuine youth movement around it. If there's real kids in real life that connect with that, I'm all for it. It's more like when Taylor Swift does something and I'm just like, this doesn't feel like you're reading a script. Taylor Swift is a true theater kid energy for sure. Yeah, and that to me just translates to everything else. It's boring. I'm not interested in it. I think that being cool is important and coolness is not valued in music right now the way that it should be. Damn, you know what? You're right. Poor the world. I didn't want to go that far. To me, one of the harder pills I had to swallow musically was the absolute insanity over that Fiona Apple album that sucked. Like I could not believe the, the, the way people were like, it was so, it was so deeply uncool. And I just was like, I don't understand what people are clamoring about. This isn't good. And yeah, but also everybody a month later, all realized and fessed up to the fact that they did actually think it does suck at, at the end of the day. So they, they did make that. But I think that, I think that like Lana Del Rey is leaning into not being cool and being like a chubby Midwesterner. It makes me want to have sex with her even more. I can't back that. I mean, Londo Rey had a couple straight bangers out of the gate. And after that, I was like, I'm good on this. It's not bad. It's just not interesting. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I mean, I don't like her new music as much as her old music, that's for sure. But there still is a part of her that has that George W. energy where I would like to have a beer with her and ride around in the Silverado.

and just eat Duncan all day with her or something. I understand. Jason, I could see that for you as an Orange County redneck. You could move to Tulsa and replace her cop boyfriend. That's right. I think they broke up. They did break up. But I do think her leading into this thing is so weird and captivating that I can't take my eyes away. I will say that. It's insane. It's insane what she's doing. Do you feel like you don't understand it? I definitely don't understand it. Cause like, where's she from? Like LA? I have no idea. I can't remember. This isn't her. What I'm saying is this, I'm almost positive. This is not her culture though. It's not like me returning to Atlanta and buying a yellow truck and getting a Confederate flag. That's my culture. What she is and what she looks like and like the persona that she's created now in the public to me is like what every female, superstar artists of her same age range would look like and dress like and act like if they truly were were full YOLO mode and did not give an absolute F like if if Katy Perry let it all go she would look like that and and Taylor and everyone else you know all these superstar women you know we already know pink would look like that but you know a house Don't talk about Halsey. No, don't talk about Halsey. We ain't going for that one. Halsey keeps it tight and right, sure. But if she didn't have to, if she just said, fuck it, I think she would just lie it out. What about an example I think is closer is Gwen Stefani, who has fully gone redneck. I'm married or going to marry a professional redneck. But Gwen Stefani still looks amazing and looks like a superstar. No, she looks like a monster. She looks insane. She's one of those people that's just going to be a freak for the rest of her life. She's got a lot of plastic surgery, but that's not – I mean, that's Hollywood, baby. Jason, you've had a little tummy tug. Don't lie. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's fake news, brother. Okay, I didn't want to bring this up, but you had your chin shaved just a little bit. And I appreciate the jawline. You mentioned that you would never mention that, Chris.

But I mean, so in the heyday of the fader, can we talk about the beef with Vice and how you guys tried to put a different race on both covers to sell more magazines? Can we confirm that that was – basically you put a white chick on one side and a cool rapper on the other side. Show me the lie. It's more like there was nuance to it, I would say. And it was not every single issue. But I think that the general thing was, what you've got to remember is, at that time, there weren't a lot of other publications that were treating all types of music as could go in one place. You had rap magazines, then you had Rolling Stone and Spin, who were kind of maybe dipping into rap, but their bread and butter was not rap. And so the fader was really like the only place where it felt like the reason that I even tried to work there. Like when I did, which was literally right out of college was like, it was the only magazine that felt like it reflected like my actual music taste, which was like, I grew up listening to rap, but also like for some reason knew a lot about like indie rock and stuff like that. I can tell you liked MGMT like we did. That's cool. I'm into Norwegian black metal. And I also enjoy MIA and Santi Gold. Yeah. santi gold is the ultimate fader artist to me and that was like right when i came in and they were like because it was always like because that was she was after mia and like the goal was always like how do we get like like how like how are there not more people that are like mia that are like doing similar things musically in terms of like just taking from whatever and little did they know Well, there's only one fucking Diplo is really the bottom line. Diplo wrote some Fader cover stories, which no one ever talks about anymore. Wait, what? Yeah. Look, we call him Wes. Wes does it all, brother. But I didn't know Wes was sick with the pen. Yeah, he's nice with the motherfucking pen. I think it was a little collaborative. He got the good notes through and documented. Take it easy.

He wrote a cover story on, do you guys remember that song, Nextel Chirp? Of course. Jason played that in the club many times during his DJ career. Yeah, so Maceo, and the whole piece was supposed to be about snap music. And it just so happened that, this was before my time at the theater, but they pegged snap music to the wrong artist, kind of. No. Not like they pegged it to the wrong person who created it, but it was kind of like Maceo is going to be like the... like at the forefront of this new sub genre and then it just like wasn't him it was like d4l so d4l friend of the podcast how long gone favorite d4l yeah how long gone i mean i legend atl legend and now and now that snap music is has been sampled for wet ass pussy and all types of popular popular music out today which makes me old But I mean, I think that, I think that the fader, I think the fader was successful with doing that. I just, I was vice at the time and there was a beef, bro. It was, it was understood that you couldn't cross enemy lines. And one of you was giving me a check and the other one wasn't. So you know where I stand. I'm pretty cheap. I'm pretty cheap. But did you, so did you write a lot of cover stories? I wrote a lot of cover stories. I became, I sort of like my beat was like, it was funny. Like I came in, So I came in and it was before there was a real avenue for kids like me to actually make it in the industry. So I was like 21. And I was in this office and I was like, there were other people my age, but I like the theater was so small that I was always trying to get, I was like, I would be like, this is the next big artist. Like we got to do something with this artist. And the whole staff would kind of be like, yeah, sure. Whatever. Like we'll get to that eventually. And then finally I was like, right. Enough times that my, let's talk about who you, let's talk about who you found in the minor leagues and brought them up. Let's talk about it. Sure. Uh, you know, it feels weird. I always feel weird talking about it. Cause it's like, I didn't, you know, they, these people were going to be famous.

No, no, no, no. Don't feel weird, Sam. Look, real estate is my gift. Yours is music. And don't shy away from that. Yeah, don't shy away from who you are. So let's call him out. Who did you discover? I discovered no one. I helped make famous. I would say Tame Impala was probably like the biggest. Wow. Jason's favorite. And you know what? For me, I want to say a big fuck you for that. Those guys are fucking annoying. i i've always got a soft spot for them what is annoying to you about tommy impala tommy impala is at this point like mercedes commercial music but i i just never i get that i i wasn't ever opposed to it but it never i like never listened to that really It was like, I don't know. I just missed it. I mean, it almost has all of the trappings of a CB music. Like, the production quality is there. Evan Dando is not in the band, so it ain't for me. All right, all right. Look, they lay down a tasty groove. They're not Uncle Tupelo. They don't sound like Uncle Tupelo, Sunbolt. Oh, my God. I mean, it's pointless, really. And also, something about it, it just... Some bands like that, it's elevator music to me in some ways. Even though it's more interesting than that, maybe it's become that. But in the beginning, I'm sure it was really exciting. It was cool. There wasn't really a lot of bands like that at the time. And I got sent a CD-R with three or four songs on there and just freaked out about them. Australians love a CD-R. Especially in like 2007. We mailed a CD-R to the office. It's a bare disk. And so I ended up just kind of being part of their career in this weird way. And one of the last Fader cover stories I wrote is I went to Perth. This was like the stupidest thing. Who paid for that? Because I know the Vader didn't. Golden Days. Vader paid for it. Wow. So you did acid with Kevin Parker in his house. I went to his house, but I did not do acid. I was there. I flew to Perth. The whole trip, including flights and time change, I was gone for about five days, which meant it was like two days of flying and then like a day and a half. Perth is a long, long flight. It was brutal. Perth is really fast.

Yeah, that's cool. One time I went to a record store in Perth and I took a picture of a dead stock silver chair dad hat, but I did not buy it. And that's my biggest regret in fashion. Oh yeah, I'd be trying to buy that off you right now. I would say that silver chair is better than Tame Impala. Silver chair... crawled so Tommy and Paula could walk. Sure, but it's two different things. It is very different. Fair enough. What did you do with Kevin Parker? We had a lot of meals. We wandered around. We broke into a beach that was fenced off for some reason. Y'all did everything except kiss. We had a really funny, awkward moment where... The town that he grew up in is so small that after I went back to my hotel, he was going to do something else. I was walking down the street to go get myself dinner or something like that. I ran into him, and it was when one of the Batman movies had come out. It had come out in Australia, and he was going to see it with his girlfriend. We ran into each other on the street, and he clearly felt like he had to invite me. to this movie with him and his girlfriend. But I was like, so, so clearly didn't want me to come. And I so clearly didn't want to go that we had this like weird standoff over like a Batman movie that we were, it was just like a very odd. If you want, you can come with us to see the dark night. No, it's fine. I don't want to go see it. Hey, Tame, it's cool, bro. I don't want to go. That's a pretty big claim to fame, but let's move on to number two. Who else do we have? You can't have any more Tame to Fames in that pocket of yours. Pull it out. What do you got? I got Salem. Okay, you know what? We need to talk about this. People's – I mean, I was there for all that, and I'm like, I like Salem. I think it's cool. But is Salem – is the excitement right now just nostalgia, or is this new shit actually slapping? So I think the new songs have not blown me away yet. I think they're promising. But I think that – so I think it's partly nostalgia, and I think it's partly like a lot of people who –

didn't know what to do with it last time around, who kind of feel bad that they're hating on it. Salem was the first experience I had where the simple act of me writing about them and trying to put them on kind of screwed them up a little bit. And I feel guilty about it to this day. I was a big champion of Salem, so they got booked to play the Fader Fort in Texas, which was like... I remember that was a show that did really bad, right? They had an awful performance and it became an internet thing, right? Yeah, it essentially destroyed their cred for a while. Were they signed to a major? No, they were on this major indie, basically. I think they were... I mean, they kind of look like... the movie good time now, which I didn't realize until after the fact, but I think, I think maybe they, they were probably a part of a good time mood board when they were, when they're putting together the visual elements. But I was, I was asking or talking about in the group chat, can, can Salem survive in a post hundred gex world that we live in right now? What say you say? Uh, I think that the, it depends on how people take the concept of a white dude pitching his voice down when he raps. which is what's happening there a lot. Tough times for that kind of experimentation right now. Yeah, I thought, but the songs have come out and he does it on the songs and no one has said anything. That's what a lot of people do that nowadays. There's a lot of successful suicide boys type of shit where it's white guys making awful versions of slowed and throwed or reverbed out a poor man's chopped and screwed style music. Uh, it's, it's, I mean, I think there, you, you have to be like more maximal about, about your, your branding and presentation to really succeed. And Salem is always going to be too cool for school in that regard. I think where. Was it, wasn't his thing though? He's like hot. He, well, there's, there, there at one point was three of them. And yeah, the kind of, the guy who raps is, is an attractive man who, uh, Courtney loved was friends with for a while. Maybe still is. It's a big old flag, baby.

Is he straight or gay? He's fluid. Hell yeah. So maybe he is for the moment. Look, I could see it. He just needs to get a little editorial. Unfortunately, Purple Magazine isn't what he used to be. Might be a roadblock for him. I think the definitive Salem story that I have, and I don't remember what year it was, but maybe the details we'll be able to place it, is it was the winter. And it was after that fateful Fader 4 performance, and I was at the Jane Hotel. So there is one thing. And he came in, and we never met in person. He was wearing white tennis shorts, and it was full-on New York February winter. And I got introduced to him as Sam from the Fader, and he jokingly, I guess jokingly, was like, thanks for ruining my career and like grabbed my shoulders and pretended to knee me in the balls. And I was like, I mean, we were, you know, we, it was friendly. Like we talked for more minutes, but I think about that all the time. Cause I was like, in this joke, there's like some truth and it's not my fault, but I do feel guilty about it. Well, you know what? Unfortunately, as a true journalist, you can't, you know, they, they dug their own grave. If you suck, you suck. What way do you think you ruin their career? Well, I think that I just, like, you know, there's this thing, like, what they were doing, I think, is now fine. Like, the fact that they didn't really have a good live show was, like, not something that people really could comprehend back then. They're like, well, what do you mean? You're, like, a working musician. Like, how come your, like, live show isn't good? But now it's like, who the fuck cares? Like, I don't, you know, it's like... No, you're right. I mean, have you had some altercations with subjects? Has anybody like confronted you about something bad? Has there ever been a real knee to the groin? Exactly. No, I've had like, uh, I've had like wet guns. I had a gun pulled on me once.

Yeah, Chris, keep talking sweet about Run the Jewels and Killer Mike is going to pull out the AR-15 real fast. Killer Mike is pro-police, so you never know what could happen with Killer Mike. No, he's strapped up. He's got the Draco on him, bro. He definitely has the Draco on him. It wasn't because of anything I wrote. It was just, like, introducing a, like, I was, like, being brought into a world and no one had ever written about these artists before, and they were, like, sort of understandably suspicious of me. Where was this and what artists are we talking about? I feel bad saying it because I feel like the gun thing is very... Illegal? I guess it was a long time ago. If it happened, it happened, bro. The truth will set you free. You don't have to say. Shut up, Jason. Chris can guess it if you give him a clue. Here's the thing. The very, very, very first Fader story that I ever did, feature that I ever did, was I had come across this rap crew in Huntsville, Alabama. Is it Rich Boy? No, this was after Rich Boy. They didn't really... They kind of made a name for themselves a little bit. Diplo got in the mix at one point. Wes again coming up on this fucking podcast. Is it Paper Route? Yeah. I don't remember. I randomly came across a song. They had these producers who were incredible. They had that song with that guy Jackie Chan rolling. That was the first time that I think I'd maybe ever heard a trance song flipped as a sample. You've never heard them jeans DJ sets then because he did a lot of, he did a lot of trance stuff that was kind of early. I'll send you some, I'll send you some MP3s. I'm a trance man. Sure. I guess you weren't on the holler board, but go ahead. He probably was actually. I, I lurked it occasionally, but so it wasn't one of them that pulled a gun on me. It was like, when I got there, there was like a bunch of people around and it was sort of like,

Some of them knew that there was a reporter coming through, some of them didn't, and one guy who was there didn't know and kind of pulled it out of his waistband. It was threatening. He was letting you know that he had a weapon and he would use it on your little white ass. There was a lot of like, who is this guy and why would a writer come down here? Which is very understandable considering the fact that this was still like, there was no... we were like a national magazine and I was like, you guys don't even have like, like, I can't even like buy a CD from you, you know? Uh, and it was more like, here's what's going on in this, like in Huntsville, Alabama and in rap music. And it ended up being a great experience. And I stayed in touch with like most of those guys and still talk to them. And, you know, I don't know what the deal was with that one dude, but there's one of those guys in every crew. It's fine. Yeah. Jason, Jason's that guy in our group. Jason's that guy. I've never seen, never seen Jason pull a gun, luckily. Yeah, you are better for it because he'll wet up the whole block. Jason ain't afraid to let it spray. That's his whole thing. Yeah, I have the Thule on me right now. I'm currently gripping the Thule. Okay, that's a pretty good list so far. Let's round it out with a third just to really pump you up. Oh, man. Jeez. This one I didn't get to go as far with, but I definitely was the first person to write about The Weeknd. Wow. Wow. Glass table girls. And it didn't. Yeah. Jason's a weekend hater. Luckily I'm OG OVO crew certified lover boy in store soon. And I, I was, I understand the appeal of able testify. You know what I'm saying? And I understand the early stuff. Jason wasn't there. Jason was in Toronto at the, in the time. I get it, Jason. I get it. You weren't at Jason was at OVO fest one, Sam. I was, I don't know. Oh, yeah, you're cool. Sorry, you were busy DJing with Stevie Aoki. You're cool. This is way after that, loser. That's true. That's true. You were DJing with someone else. I can't even think of their name. So what did you write about The Weeknd? So it was just like a song or even maybe like one song had come out and no one knew what it was. And I was like, this is amazing. It was in the classic blogging era. So I just blogged about it.

And we all got very excited about it. We didn't know there was any kind of Drake connection yet. And then that started to emerge. And there was this months and months long push where we were like, we got to get The Weeknd on the cover of The Fader. And no one knew what he looked like. And he ended up not doing it. And I remember being like, why would you not? I still to this day, I'm like, that probably would have been the best look for him at the time. You should have hit my line. I could have put you in touch. But I understand. If I look like The Weeknd, I wouldn't want to be photographed either. We put some people that didn't want to show their face on the cover in ways where you couldn't see their face. And it was fine. We did it. The list goes on. Maybe that was it, actually. Yeah, zombie fucking rules, baby. Even though he's a bad person. Where did he go? He kind of disappeared, huh? Yeah, I think he had a little bit too much of the gear and lost his mind and probably hit someone that he shouldn't have. Can I ask you guys who Zombie is? He's an infamous kind of mythical British producer that makes grime and UK funky two-step music. I don't know. yeah he just kind of like produced like grime instrumentals and he made some really really cool music but he's known for notoriously being an asshole not showing up to sets you know being abusive to women i believe like all kinds of bad shit yeah r.i.p zombie well so you also worked at vulture correct yes i did right before i moved out to la okay i got some beef with your ex-co-worker craig Fuck Craig. Craig likes the Deftones too much, and liking the Deftones, that's on site for me. Sam, do you fuck with the Deftones? I fucked with the Deftones. Yeah, when I was 14, the Deftones were a fucking bomb as hell, baby. Actually, all joking aside, Craig's brilliant. I love his work. I love following him on Twitter. Deftones seems like a hill he's willing to die on.

The thing about Craig is that his Twitter presence is a lot more intense than his real-life presence. Some say that about me. I can't say the same thing about you. You are as loudmouthed IRL and IRT. In real Twitter. So you're saying that Craig capping for the Deftones could be just part of a persona, or do you think he's really White Horse Hive? No, he definitely would be totally fine with me saying that he loves the Deftones. Yeah, but wouldn't you rather die on the Deftones hill than, say, a Fallout Boar hill? no yes 100 yes 100 000 loaded god complex cock it and pull it i'll die i'll die i the depth the fallout boy i just the thing is no one no one talks about fallout boy there's some critically acclaimed deep artists everybody knows what they are the deftones people talk about like it's some life-changing music but it but for a lot of people like they were like they were They were like a full gateway band. They're a hot topic mouth breather, suburban gateway band, JNCO band. That's what they are. But if you were like 14 when they were out there covering the Smiths, maybe the first time you heard the Smiths was because of a Deftones cover. Don't look. Sam, I see what you're doing, and I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to bait me with the Smiths, the best band of all time. I'm not going to go there, Sam, because I learned about the Smiths through cool hardcore bands. Who did Fall Out Boy cover? Disney Kids, Kids Bop or something? Shut up, Jason. Did they cover Little Mermaid? What did they do? I don't know about the Fall Out Boy cover catalog. All I know is that the Smiths are not some obscure band that you need to find out about through the Deftowns. You did in 1998? Look, I'm telling you, Sam, I was around in 1998, and I found out about the Smith before that from hardcore bands, which is what the Deftones wished they were. Well, not everyone is as cool as you, Chris. Thank you, Jason. And thankfully, we have a band like the Deftones to give us a gateway. Jason, are you White Horse Live? When I was 14, I was capping for the tones. But also, there was a lot of music when I was in middle school.

that that looking back now i am not super duper into but it helped get me into other stuff like i was listening to tool real heavy when i was 13. tool is another one that i absolutely put in the bin. right and and i don't listen to tool now and the music did not age well for me but you know looking at you know at the time that listening to them then i dug deeper into other music and then i found some stuff that i actually I understand. I expect more from my co-host, but I'll let it slide. But if you get into a Fall Out Boy, where does that lead you? It doesn't lead you to anywhere. Let me explain something about Fall Out Boy. Fall Out Boy were co-workers. You know what I mean? When I managed a band, Sam, are you familiar with a band called Cartel? Yeah. I managed Cartel. You have to understand that this was my, you know, Fall Out Boy were contemporaries of ours. Much, much more successful, but contemporaries of ours. So maybe I have a little soft spot for them as a band. You know? Oh, you definitely do. It's not a maybe. Sam, what is your stance on Oasis? Some good songs. I'm really glad that they exist to argue and, like, have personalities and kind of, like, find, like... they're they're like the large majority of their music to be like sort of boring but like the good songs are amazing okay you know what that's not what i'm looking for the answer is i think sam and i have very very when i ask you when i when i sam when i ask you what do you think of asus you say greatest band of all time and that's where we end it your little nuanced like little take which was which was i would say you know you're saying they're good but not great i understand that take but are you a brit pop daddy at all or is that not really oh no that was never that was never my shit As an adult, as your taste is developed, you don't even go back and understand the greatest genre of all time. No, because my point of reference for it was so small that I just don't really connect to it that much. Interesting. I understand. I understand that. Well, what are you connecting to these days? What are you jamming in the Tesla? Man, this is always a really hard question. Speaking of Salem, actually, there's this mix.

uh that they did that i i was in full mix on youtube i don't know what you're talking about yeah that mix that thing is that thing to me is incredible and it's even more incredible to me because i like i think i like tweeted about it or something and all these people were like so mad that i liked it like complete strangers we're like this is just like a poorly mixed like and i was like i don't care like i don't really care like i don't i don't know why you're mad that i like this thing what was there a criticism of it it was a There was nothing about it. It was just like a mix. It's just like some music. Maybe there's some new music mixed in there. It's a lot of edits. They expect more from you as a professional critic, and I do too, to be honest. I like the mix okay, though. I understand. The mix is better than the songs, I would say. Sam, do you smoke weed when you listen to it or no? uh i have and i've done i've listened to it sober too i've done both damn so sam's bumping sam's cruising down hillhurst in the tesla and zooted up he's keeping some big doinks and he's got that big doink sam said pull over at med men because he ain't even driving because the tesla drive itself you know what i'm saying um thank god well also we you know you sorry for interrupting chris but we were talking about the the rolling stone 500 best albums of all time And I think we should do a deep dive just into the top 10. I haven't looked at the top 10. I haven't pulled up. No, no, no, Chris. We'll start at [redacted address] down to one. Okay, yeah. Let's start with 10, Jason. Go ahead, bud. Number 10, Lauryn Hill, The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill. 1998. All right, so here's my thing with that. That album, I feel like there's a reasonable... place for that and that's probably somewhere like that was that thing was such a big deal like if you look at like the impact of that i don't listen to it anymore really ever i think ron hill is like a really talented rapper but like and there's some really good songs on there but like it's not an album that i'm gonna come back to a lot at this point in my life but i'm fine with it yeah i don't disagree it has some amazing legendary i don't disagree lost ones you know what a great tune etc but

you know top 10 of all time of all the music ever is a you know i would i would maybe i would put that at like 198 instead of 10. wow that's also fair that's the thing about these lists is like anything you say i'd be like yeah that makes sense number nine bob dylan blood on the tracks okay i'm with that you know i'm with that dylan high yeah that's that's that's i would say that the i'm assuming there's are there any other dylan albums coming TBD, my friend. But that one had a lot of big tunes on it. We're not going to spoil it for you. What's number eight, Jason? Prince Purple Rain. Sure. Yeah, I think that's fine. We all agree with all this decently enough. How mad can you be at that? It's not like they're putting fucking Carly Rae Jepsen in here or something like Pitchfork would do. Sam, would you say Purple Rain? I don't even know if that is Prince's best album, let alone the number eight album ever made in the history of music. I mean, I think if you get into the psychology of the list, which we absolutely shouldn't do. Please don't. Thank you. You've got to get Prince in the top ten, and that is a good choice. Fair, fair, fair. Okay, number seven, Fleetwood Mac Rumors. Let's fucking go. I'm more of a Tusk guy. Does Rumors have Blue Letter on it? I don't think so. This one has Go Your Own Way, The Chain, Don't Stop, Dreams. It has the most singles. Yeah, that's got to be there. I mean, that's got to be there, and they're cool. So it's got to say. What's number six? Also, Rumors is the number six best-selling album in the history of music. Also not surprising. Wow, wow, wow. That's crazy. That's crazy. Okay, number six. That's crazy. That's crazy. Yes, yes.

Nirvana, never mind. I mean, sure. No. We're anti-Nirvana on this podcast. No, we're not. I grew up in Seattle. I can't be anti-Nirvana. Oh, wow. I didn't know you were an agitator. You grew up in the anarchist compound of Seattle? Oh, did I ever? Damn, bro. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Nirvana, never mind. You know. Life-changing music. I'm more of a fan of Nirvana Unplugged as a piece of art, though. Number five, The Beatles, Abbey Road. Sure, whatever, man. To me, it's not interesting to talk about The Beatles anymore. Wow, Sam's getting agitated this list from his competitor, Rolling Stone. I have no competitor. Yeah, I agree with you. He said there's no competition. I broke Tame Impala. There's no competition for me. Yeah, yeah. That is the Tame Impala of our generation. The Beatles of our generation is T.I. I mean, do you really? Tame Impala, not rapper T.I., sorry. No reason to talk about it. I agree. Jason, continue because Exile Main Street hasn't been named yet. Number four, Songs in the Key of Life by Stevie Wonder. You know, you can't argue with that one. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you could maybe make it a little higher if you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Number three, Joni Mitchell Blue. You know what? You know what's interesting about that? Obviously, that album is going to be considered a classic, especially by Rolling Stone. But I think that that album right now is probably like... super super impactful for a lot of people so that makes a lot of sense to me it's definitely extra relevant right i would agree with that but it does have the uh the song a case of you famously covered by james blake absolute absolute modern day do not bring up james blake on this podcast he's canceled james james blake fucking plays those keys like alicia on that song boy

oh my god number two this is i i agree with this 100 beach boys pet sounds sure yeah whatever boring rolling stones exile on main street now in the top 10 absolutely number one marvin gay what's going on that's crazy I don't know. I don't know if that's crazy. I mean, it's not the number one of all time in the history. That is not number one of all time. I don't even know how to decide what the number one album of all time is. How does that work? It's got to be fucking Mozart, Beethoven, baby. No, it doesn't. I think, in my mind, it's the Rolling Stones and the Beatles, even though I agree, Sam, that those are both kind of boring. I don't... Exile Main Street is better than all 10 of these albums. Here's some albums I'll scroll through that I think that should have been in the 10 instead. Michael Jackson Thriller? Canceled. Exile was 14, Chris. That's fucked up. Exile is the greatest record of Rolling Stone style shit too. Show me a cooler record. London Calling? Okay, pretty sick, but I'm not surprised that's not top 10. I'm happy to see My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy at 17, though. No, no. Yes, yes. That is by far the greatest Kanye album of all time. We've talked about this on this podcast before. Sam, is this the first time we disagree? It might be. I really disagree. Okay, preach on that, my brother. Well, you should start a podcast then, Sam. That album is... is like is boring to me it's like it like both in the way that it was you don't like ballet either look he's got he's got elton john playing the piano and all the lights with with john legend singing that shit he's got 37 other people along there he's sampling king crimson you know damn that is fire he's doing all kinds of wild shit baby he's got apex twin samples

That was the first time Bon Ivera was in the motherfucking mix. The list goes on. What's your favorite Kanye album, then? I guess, in a way, it's Yeezus, but not, like... What? Yeah. Bro, you crazy for that one. Yo, yo, yo. Your Kanye machine is broke, fam. Yo, you ever heard College Dropout, a little album called College Dropout? No, Yuzis is a really cool album that I really like, but I don't think it's as good. You guys are both fucking nerds. I liked Kanye when he was with Cameron and trying to be cool. Well, yeah. I mean, obviously, but College Dropout is not a cool album if you listen to it now for the most part. Yeah, Gold Digger is such a bad song. It's super nerdy. Well, here's one that Chris will... absolutely love number 19 to pimp a butterfly kendrick lamar the worst the worst rapper of our generation he's not the worst but he's he's i don't we don't like kendrick lamar i don't and i don't exactly know why i don't like him yeah sam why is kendrick lamar so uncool uh because he is he's uncool the same way that like anyone who's been similar to him in the history of rap is like uncool which is that like I like Kendrick Lamar. I think he's really talented. I don't like all of his music. I don't like when he gets preachy. It's not cool to be sincere, really. You're right. That's a problem in this society. Sincerity and earnestness are canceled. We don't want any of that. I hate it on Twitter. I hate it in music. I don't want any of that shit, especially in hip-hop. I don't think he's not talented. I mean, I, I, of course it's like undeniable, but like, he's just uncool though. You know what I mean? Where it's just like, I, I, I don't, nothing about him appeals to me. I never think about it. It's like forced on my throats, you know, throat during like award shows. And that's the only time I think about him. Right. He's the deaf tones of rap. Yes. Well, you know, he's, he's uncool because he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't really like fit in.

The cool thing about rap is when you uncover different scenes. Before we got on this track, I was going to talk about this dude I really like from Flint named YNJ who has a mixtape out. Still no clean water. Still no clean water in Flint. It's bad. He has a mixtape called Coochieland. All of the songs are on that theme. Jason likes this already. I can tell. Jason pulled up his Kazan and is downloading this. We're going for another hour. Block the gates. Mark Maron works. Block the gates. I came across him because some snippet of one of his songs is big on TikTok, and I always look to see what those kids are listening to on TikTok. Real dad shit, baby. Oh yeah, real dad shit right there. I came across him and I was like, oh, who's this weird rapper from the Bay? And then I was like, oh, he's from Flint. And all of his songs are basically the same. But he has so much style. And he's so like, he does not give a fuck. He's amazing. Do you think he gets a lot of coochie himself? There's a lot of dudes in his videos, so unclear. Well, Sam, I don't know if you've ever heard of a little genre called rap, but there's usually 20 dudes in the video, but maybe there's some chicks, too. There is usually a fair share of fellas in the vid. I wanted to ask you, what do you think the role of criticism is right now? Because there's a lot of critic haters out there, and I find it to be very important to hear... I love talking to the greatest minds of our generation about, about music. And we've had a lot of people. We've had John Carmonic on the podcast. We've had Joe Coscarelli on the podcast. We've had a lot of, you know, Matthew Shipper. We've had a lot of music people on the podcast because I personally really like that. Yes. Yeah. We have it. We've also had other good guests. Yeah. But, but like, what do you, why do you think people are so mad at critics? Like, why is it all of a sudden unacceptable to, to give something a.

a look under the microscope versus just, I like this? I think that people don't really understand why they would need criticism now, which is somewhat fair. If you're not really spending money on music, then why do you need someone to tell you where to spend your zero dollars when you can just go listen to something? But I think that... So what's happening is that a lot of people are identifying as critics, but aren't critics. And so they end up in this space where they're kind of like throwing wild opinions around in ways that maybe aren't like fully thought out, which I'm feeling, I'm feeling, I'm feeling a little bit attacked right now, but I'm going to let you continue. But I think, but you know, I mean, criticism is obviously hugely important. And I think that we're just in a stage where like, also the other thing too, is that like, if you're a fan of music, you. Whereas before you maybe would listen to what a critic had to say about music. Now you just want to hear it directly from the artist. And artists have always hated critics and hate them even more now. So if your favorite artist is like, fuck all critics, then you're going to be like, fuck all critics too. But do you think there are some artists that do like critics? Because people would argue that critics are the ones who are... you know able to to see or read an artist's creations and and give them feedback to hopefully make them better one day yeah i mean i would say that like in general a blanket generalization i can make is that most rappers really appreciate critics and something that i've always loved about rap music is like there was definitely a period when i was working at the fader where you'd talk to like a mid-level indie band about like maybe doing a feature in the magazine and they'd be like act all like too cool for it and then eventually do it Bro, I hate Band of Horses, too, man. Those guys are just dicks. Yeah, they were good on Tony Hawk Pro Skate. Continue. But then with rap, there's just a better understanding of the give and take between what someone's saying about your music and what you're trying to say with your music. And I think that a lot of that shit got ironed out by the time I got in the mix. Literally, people...

running up on people at the source like none of that was happening by 2007 so like all of those lines have already been figured out and drawn so like most rappers i feel like are very good with talking about criticism and like hearing it and not taking it personally or taking it personally and moving somewhere else from it that's good to know i i just think it's a i think we're gonna get into it I just think it's very necessary with all art forms. And I think music is the one that appeals to me the most. And it's probably the most universal as far as what people are talking about. So I would hate to see it go away. musicians are pussies and tick tock rules you know what i mean like i don't that's not the world that's not a world i want to live in well it's never going to go away it's just it's just going to get like harder to find and it's not going to be bankrolled by anyone well that and that's the problem we need these big banks to come in and put some stuff some money in your pockets so you can keep paying for that tesla and all this weed um but what is the so what are you writing about right now like what are you Is it strictly music or are we entertainment? Where are we? I took a little break from music writing because I was just burned out on it. So I have been writing about art when I can't, more like profiles. I just did a profile of Andrew Kuo. A former How Long Gone guest, a graduate from How Long Gone University. A great New Yorker and a great guy. Yeah, amazing, amazing dude. Terrific New Yorker. Where was his profile written? Yes, it was. It was very good. I'm familiar. I forgot that you wrote that. I apologize. That's okay. I'm doing another one for them right now on that dude, LSD World Peace. You know about that guy? Yes, I do know about him. That one I've been working on for a long time and then I put it aside and I'm coming back to it. Shout out to Essence Edectrix, Durga, for really holding you down. Dude, yeah. I've known Durga for a really long time, and one day I was like, I should be writing for them because you can do shit like that. Who else is going to accept an LSD World Peace 2500 word profile? No, 100%. No, the editorial is A+, and I'm not just saying that because I write there as well. And then I do creative agency, like copywriting stuff.

No, I see you're good. So you are making the, all right. So he's making the big bucks. I'm not as worried about you as I was before. You don't need to be worried about me. Only in the sense of feeling jaded. I guess you could worry about me. I mean, look, we're all, we all feel, we're all old white guys here feeling jaded. If the world passes us by and we're still talking about Tame Impala, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really our, ours to lose. You know what I mean? Grab a towel because we're, we're washed, bro. I'm cool with being washed. I'm fine. I mean, did you, so when you left, when you left Vulture, it was just to go freelance and you wanted to move to LA. Was that the idea? Yeah. I had a, I had a kid and I was like, damn, I didn't, what's up daddy. I didn't really get a kid. Yeah. I've got a toddler and he's like two and a half. Um, I had a kid and I was like, my wife and I were in a one bedroom apartment in New York and we were like, well, were you in Brooklyn? You can be honest. Yeah, of course. Well, I think that's the problem, but continue. Yeah. Well, yeah, I know she, and she, my wife would agree. She moved, she had like a sick. rent-controlled studio in the West Village that she gave up so that we could move into an apartment together in Brooklyn. Wow. Love is too powerful. She was like, I really don't want to live out here. I was like, well, we're doing it now. Basically, we were sleeping in our living room and giving our kid our bedroom. We were like, this is stupid. This is insane. What are we doing? Why are we living this way? And so I just wanted to move out to LA. So we just came out and New York magazine was cool with me, like working for a little while, but understandably they wanted their, you know, music editor at New York magazine to exist in New York city. Those fucking narcs over there. You know, I know a few people at this little quote unquote, New York magazine. I've heard of it before. And I'm not allowing you to work remotely. Failing New York magazine. Is your, Chris, is your, is your column still going?

The column is currently being rejiggered, but it is going to return bigger and badder than ever. I'm actually working on one right now. That's great. That's very good news for me because I feel like I genuinely find it. I really find it useful. You know, it's great to hear that from my peers, not just my fans. You know, it's great. It's great to hear that. And Jason would never be honest and say that he buys everything that I post. So it's nice to hear from someone else that actually reads it. Yeah, it's great. It either validates a purchase I already made or makes me want to buy something else. Dude, well, I mean, it's tough in LA because everybody dresses like shit, so I hope you're getting these fits off. I'm getting no fits off. You know, I buy every $7,000 briefcase you post on that website. Jason, that's why we're friends. That's why we work together. Our relationship is strong, and I'm glad that... monetarily you're spending. Putting money back into the environment. I know how the click-through economy works as well. Can I ask a question about the call? Yeah, I'll allow it. That I never asked anyone that I could have easily asked in an office for years. You know when you recommend something and it's kind of more expensive than the average person would want to pay? And then there's a parenthetical that's like, or you can get this cheaper version here. Is that your inclusion or is that an editorial inclusion? Oh, no, no, I would never. That's their inclusion. Are you kidding me? No, no, but I actually, I mean, I think that part of the reason I like doing it and the fun of doing it was also like including things at a real price range. You know what I mean? Like, of course, I'm going to put something from the road that costs $3,000, but I will give you the unique option because that's truly how I see the world. You know what I mean? So I think that... And that's fine. If you can't afford it, I mean, too bad for you. But there's something else out there for you that will satiate that need. Right. And I really appreciate your advocacy for the Uniqlo Oxford. The only brand that matters. You know, it's truly the greatest. And I think people should wear it more. I agree. I was buying those in bulk when I was like 22 and I had no money. And I was like, I can't believe that I have this, that I can just get these.

And I still wear them. Exactly. I have a couple that are really worn in nice, just really fitting my Wasp fantasy. Sam, it was really nice to chat with you today. Sorry for all the back and forth, but it was great to have you. I think we learned a lot. Jason, do you feel like you learned a lot? I sure did. Thank you very much for doing this pod, Sam. It was a true pleasure. And despite us only disagreeing on that Kanye record, I think we are cycle sisters as it pertains to musical tastes. Yeah, we'll fight over the Kanye record in the street. One last question. Where do you stand on Radiohead? I'm 36 years old, which means that Radiohead... occupied an important place in my life when I was a teenager. Answer the question, Sam. I like Radiohead. Great talking to you. Great answer. Sam, where can people find you online, on social media, etc.? You can find me on Twitter at Shockley Smith or I've got a newsletter that I try to write about shit. A sub stack. Wow. Surprise, surprise. What's that called? Gross Life. Great. G-R-O-S-S? Yeah. Great. GrossLife.substack.com. Put some shekels in his account. This is a new father, guys. Any little bit helps. It's a struggle out here as a writer, I know. Yeah, it's all right. And then you'll see him. Big bucks, big bucks over here. Jason, do you hear that? Chris, he's a real writer. You know what I mean? Oh, I understand. I understand. He's not doing, he's not. Okay. I know I'm not, but I'm glad that he is and everybody's making money. Diapers are expensive. Sam, thank you. You guys go, go, go read his writing. He's wrong about a lot of music stuff and that's what makes him great. We will, Sam, we'll talk to you soon. Jason, go fuck yourself.

Thanks, guys. Bye, guys.